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> Over a career, the value of tuition free college for the average American comes nowhere near the extra taxes and lower income they’d have in France That's so

by adev_ 7y ago

> Over a career, the value of tuition free college for the average American comes nowhere near the extra taxes and lower income they’d have in France That's so bullshit. What matter is of course not the difference between tuitions fees than taxes. What's matter is that everybody, even the ones that can't afford the tuitions fees can access university. Which you can in France, which you can not in Europe. I am the living example of that. I come from a family what would never have been able to afford me US schools tuitions fees. And still I am engineer, thanks to the European systems.

jigglesniggle 7y ago
The other side of this is that in the European system many otherwise qualified individuals will never see higher education because there is so much competition for the limited spaces available. I would hazard to guess that most people arguing that US education should be more European would not be able to achieve degrees in such a system anyway due to early test scores precluding them from attending.
- adev_ 7y ago
  > The other side of this is that in the European system many otherwise qualified individuals will never see higher education because there is so much competition for the limited spaces available. I tend to prefer a system where you fail because you are not good enough, to a system where you fail because the pockets of your parents are not deep enough.
  - jigglesniggle 7y ago
    "Not good enough" is compared to how many slots are available, many of the people forced out could be good enough. The stories I have been told of difficult classes in the EU are mind-bending. They seem to be incentivizing ~80% of the class to drop out. There is no way the majority of people are not suited for, say, IT. They may not want to do it, but that doesn't mean they are not capable of doing it.
adev_ 7y ago
My Apologies for my early morning grumpy post, without re-reading. Here is the more fixed one : > Over a career, the value of tuition free college for the average American comes nowhere near the extra taxes and lower income they’d have in France That is so bullshit. What matter is not, of course, the difference of cost between tuition fees and taxes. What matter is that everybody, even the ones that can not afford the tuition fees can access University and proper education. Which you can in France and most of European countries, and which you cannot in USA. I am the living example of that. I come from a family what would never have been able to afford to pay US schools fees. And still I am engineer, thanks to the European system.
- DanBC 7y ago
  > My Apologies for my early morning grumpy post You're responding to someone who consistently misrepresents the facts about healthcare and healthcare spending in different countries, so a level of grumpiness is somewhat expected.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    If there is a statistic you want to correct please suggest one. That said, the blatant misrepresentation of the US system as one where everyone is going bankrupt despite having health insurance makes me pretty grumpy too.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      5 Year survival rates are a useless metric that don't say anything about patient harm from over-testing and over-treatment, or anything about all cause mortality. The US does better at 5 year survival rates because it's happy to cause harm to patients for no benefit. You keep saying "The UK"[1] NHS denies treatment to patients, but you can't ever say what treatment is denied, instead pointing to stuff that's readily available. (Which is surprising, because if you actually cared about the truth you'd easily find examples of care that isn't available.) I've never seen a post by you about the English NHS which isn't wrong. Doesn't it worry you that every single post you make about the English NSH is wrong? [1] There isn't one NHS. There are 4 separate systems, controlled by different governments.
KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
In practice almost nobody pays the sticker price for US unis. I would guarantee that you would be able to go to your choice of uni. Financial aid, scholarships, and loans are very very generous. A lot of the talk around the price of education is politics.

by adev_ 7y ago

jigglesniggle 7y ago

The other side of this is that in the European system many otherwise qualified individuals will never see higher education because there is so much competition for the limited spaces available. I would hazard to guess that most people arguing that US education should be more European would not be able to achieve degrees in such a system anyway due to early test scores precluding them from attending.

adev_ 7y ago
> The other side of this is that in the European system many otherwise qualified individuals will never see higher education because there is so much competition for the limited spaces available. I tend to prefer a system where you fail because you are not good enough, to a system where you fail because the pockets of your parents are not deep enough.
- jigglesniggle 7y ago
  "Not good enough" is compared to how many slots are available, many of the people forced out could be good enough. The stories I have been told of difficult classes in the EU are mind-bending. They seem to be incentivizing ~80% of the class to drop out. There is no way the majority of people are not suited for, say, IT. They may not want to do it, but that doesn't mean they are not capable of doing it.

adev_ 7y ago

My Apologies for my early morning grumpy post, without re-reading. Here is the more fixed one : > Over a career, the value of tuition free college for the average American comes nowhere near the extra taxes and lower income they’d have in France That is so bullshit. What matter is not, of course, the difference of cost between tuition fees and taxes. What matter is that everybody, even the ones that can not afford the tuition fees can access University and proper education. Which you can in France and most of European countries, and which you cannot in USA. I am the living example of that. I come from a family what would never have been able to afford to pay US schools fees. And still I am engineer, thanks to the European system.

DanBC 7y ago
> My Apologies for my early morning grumpy post You're responding to someone who consistently misrepresents the facts about healthcare and healthcare spending in different countries, so a level of grumpiness is somewhat expected.
- rayiner 7y ago
  If there is a statistic you want to correct please suggest one. That said, the blatant misrepresentation of the US system as one where everyone is going bankrupt despite having health insurance makes me pretty grumpy too.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    5 Year survival rates are a useless metric that don't say anything about patient harm from over-testing and over-treatment, or anything about all cause mortality. The US does better at 5 year survival rates because it's happy to cause harm to patients for no benefit. You keep saying "The UK"[1] NHS denies treatment to patients, but you can't ever say what treatment is denied, instead pointing to stuff that's readily available. (Which is surprising, because if you actually cared about the truth you'd easily find examples of care that isn't available.) I've never seen a post by you about the English NHS which isn't wrong. Doesn't it worry you that every single post you make about the English NSH is wrong? [1] There isn't one NHS. There are 4 separate systems, controlled by different governments.

KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago

In practice almost nobody pays the sticker price for US unis. I would guarantee that you would be able to go to your choice of uni. Financial aid, scholarships, and loans are very very generous. A lot of the talk around the price of education is politics.