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I'm not sure it's an entirely fair way to define poverty. In many parts of Europe you can have a relatively high standard of living without consuming (or even o

I'm not sure it's an entirely fair way to define poverty. In many parts of Europe you can have a relatively high standard of living without consuming (or even owning) all that much. For example, you can have a high standard of living without owning a car (and all the 'consumption' that goes along with that), in cities that have good public transport, and a good infrastructure/environment for walking and cycling. In much of the US, that's difficult or impossible.

rayiner 7y ago
But if consumption capacity was equal in Europe, that consumption would shift to something else, such as food and entertainment. People in New York City don’t consume less because they don’t own a car—they spend more money eating out, etc. And Europeans are hardly ascetics. It’s fair to assume that in both places, if people had more means to consume they would.
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  > It’s fair to assume that in both places, if people had more means to consume they would. Not the parent commenter but why do you think they would if they could? Consumption habits across borders aren't as obvious to me because of advertising, culture, etc.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Consumption habits don’t vary that much in the developed world. The household savings rate is 5-10% in most countries, with the US being lower than famously frugal Germany, but higher than Italy or Spain: https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/916lqg-household-saving-rates https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/916lqg-house.... (Switzerland and Luxembourg being heavily financialized countries seem to be outliers.)
- Reason077 7y ago
  > "But if consumption capacity was equal in Europe, that consumption would shift to something else, such as food and entertainment." Yes. But my point is that not all consumption can be considered equal in terms of the wellbeing and quality of life that it provides. For example, if I was spending $5000 per year on car payments and fuel for my commute to work, that's a lot of 'consumption'. But it isn't something that makes me happy or feel fulfilled. On the other hand, suppose I live in a city where I can walk, cycle, or ride a tram to work. My quality of life might be equal or better - yet I'm consuming $5000 less.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Americans could live in a city where they walk, cycle, or ride a tram to work. For the most part, they don’t want to. They used to have such cities, but they ripped up the tram lines and put in freeways. (Part of that is because most of the US is quite unpleasant to walk or cycle in from a weather point of view. The average high in Amsterdam, a famous cycling city, tops out at 72 degrees. In Atlanta, it’s 80+ from May through September.)
    - pvaldes 7y ago
      Napoleon had the same problem with his soldiers, and solved it with lots of sycamores. Atlanta could put some temporary structures to give shadow also.
      - tmb 7y ago
        Napoleon never set foot within a thousand kilometers of a similar climate, the closest he came was in exile. The humidity is the main attraction to the show and cares little for shade, peachtree, sycamore or otherwise.
        pvaldes 7y ago
        Can't be worse than Egypt or Siria. In any case is just an idea. If there is humidity terraform Atlanta would be much easier.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Oh, you're right, I'll just go and install a tram line now.
    - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
      1950s technocrats didn't want to. Ripping up trams and putting in freeways was usually done in spite of public protest.
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  I don't want to consume more, I want to consume less, because it's better for the environment.
roenxi 7y ago
One interesting thing I found comparing UK towns to Australian towns was the UK towns allowed a much higher quality of life because road and house block sizes were calibrated to walking, whereas Australian roads are all calibrated for two way car traffic and block sizes are huge. There is also an assumption that if you want to buy something you will drive to a local retail distribution point. It forces people to spend a lot more on transport to get the same lifestyle. I'm not a fan of cars. It'd be nice if they were toys for the rich and Australian cities were built around everyone walking around or catching public transport.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
But that does depend on luck say 20 years ago you brought a council flat in London in Westminster or those ones next to blackfriars with a view of the Thames - yes you can. Living centrally in Paris, London etc is not cheap.

rayiner 7y ago

But if consumption capacity was equal in Europe, that consumption would shift to something else, such as food and entertainment. People in New York City don’t consume less because they don’t own a car—they spend more money eating out, etc. And Europeans are hardly ascetics. It’s fair to assume that in both places, if people had more means to consume they would.

Infinitesimus 7y ago
> It’s fair to assume that in both places, if people had more means to consume they would. Not the parent commenter but why do you think they would if they could? Consumption habits across borders aren't as obvious to me because of advertising, culture, etc.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Consumption habits don’t vary that much in the developed world. The household savings rate is 5-10% in most countries, with the US being lower than famously frugal Germany, but higher than Italy or Spain: https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/916lqg-household-saving-rates https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/916lqg-house.... (Switzerland and Luxembourg being heavily financialized countries seem to be outliers.)
Reason077 7y ago
> "But if consumption capacity was equal in Europe, that consumption would shift to something else, such as food and entertainment." Yes. But my point is that not all consumption can be considered equal in terms of the wellbeing and quality of life that it provides. For example, if I was spending $5000 per year on car payments and fuel for my commute to work, that's a lot of 'consumption'. But it isn't something that makes me happy or feel fulfilled. On the other hand, suppose I live in a city where I can walk, cycle, or ride a tram to work. My quality of life might be equal or better - yet I'm consuming $5000 less.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Americans could live in a city where they walk, cycle, or ride a tram to work. For the most part, they don’t want to. They used to have such cities, but they ripped up the tram lines and put in freeways. (Part of that is because most of the US is quite unpleasant to walk or cycle in from a weather point of view. The average high in Amsterdam, a famous cycling city, tops out at 72 degrees. In Atlanta, it’s 80+ from May through September.)
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    Napoleon had the same problem with his soldiers, and solved it with lots of sycamores. Atlanta could put some temporary structures to give shadow also.
    - tmb 7y ago
      Napoleon never set foot within a thousand kilometers of a similar climate, the closest he came was in exile. The humidity is the main attraction to the show and cares little for shade, peachtree, sycamore or otherwise.
      - pvaldes 7y ago
        Can't be worse than Egypt or Siria. In any case is just an idea. If there is humidity terraform Atlanta would be much easier.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Oh, you're right, I'll just go and install a tram line now.
  - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
    1950s technocrats didn't want to. Ripping up trams and putting in freeways was usually done in spite of public protest.
PunchTornado 7y ago
I don't want to consume more, I want to consume less, because it's better for the environment.

roenxi 7y ago

One interesting thing I found comparing UK towns to Australian towns was the UK towns allowed a much higher quality of life because road and house block sizes were calibrated to walking, whereas Australian roads are all calibrated for two way car traffic and block sizes are huge. There is also an assumption that if you want to buy something you will drive to a local retail distribution point. It forces people to spend a lot more on transport to get the same lifestyle. I'm not a fan of cars. It'd be nice if they were toys for the rich and Australian cities were built around everyone walking around or catching public transport.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

But that does depend on luck say 20 years ago you brought a council flat in London in Westminster or those ones next to blackfriars with a view of the Thames - yes you can. Living centrally in Paris, London etc is not cheap.