5 ms·

The .308 cartridge commonly used to hunt deer carries substantially more energy than the .223 or 5.56 used in a Mini-14 or AR-15. If not energy, by what metric

The .308 cartridge commonly used to hunt deer carries substantially more energy than the .223 or 5.56 used in a Mini-14 or AR-15. If not energy, by what metric could the latter be described as "high powered"?

neverartful 7y ago
Velocity is a big part of the equation.
- kls 7y ago
  Only when dealing with body armor. It's the reason the 45 ACP and the 12 gauge slug are still powerhouses even at relatively slow velocities, when compared to modern high velocity rounds. When body armor is taken out of the equation these rounds do as much of not more than their high velocity counterparts. You can compensate for some loss of mass with velocity but not all of it. It's similar the the differences between horsepower and torque. To paraphrase a popular meme, Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much of the wall you take with you.
- sigstoat 7y ago
  energy takes into account both mass and velocity. you can check the relative energies (and velocities) of common rounds on wikipedia. .308/7.62 has more energy, as the projectiles generally mass more than twice as much, and go only slightly slower.
- partialrecall 7y ago
  All* full sized rifle rounds are supersonic and cause the cavitation the 5.56 has become infamous for (e.g. bruh it goes so fast it's basically explosive! - overheard in a cafe). The terminal effects of 5.56 on flesh are severe, but not moreso than other rifle rounds. A full sized rifle round will cause more damage and can do it from much further away. * excepting a few that are deliberately manufactured to be subsonic, because they are niche products.
  - jabl 7y ago
    IIUC many military 5.56mm rounds are designed to fragment upon impact (against the spirit if not the letter of the Geneva convention). 7.62mm rounds are (or at least used to be) designed to hold together in one piece.
    - ntw1103 7y ago
      The latest military 5.56 rounds are actually steel, and designed for penetration, not fragmentation. The US army is now using M855A1(Steel core, and steel penetrating tip), which replaces the M855(jacketed steel core) What you are thinking of is the 1899 Hague Convention, not the Geneva convention. Also, the USA was not a signing country. https://www.army.mil/article/41283/army_begins_shipping_improved_556mm_cartridge https://www.army.mil/article/41283/army_begins_shipping_impr...
    - bluedino 7y ago
      A single soldier can also carry a heck of a lot more 5.56 than 7.62 Then there's the urban legend of 5.56 being chosen because injured troops are more of a liability than dead troops
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  If your equation is Energy=mass*velocity^2, the 3x mass difference is much more important than the 15% velocity difference. That's why a .308 has about twice the energy.
partialrecall 7y ago
> If not energy, by what metric could the latter be described as "high powered"? Well the Browning Hi-Power was so named for it's large magazine capacity. But I agree with the substance of what you're saying. 5.56 is not a "high power" rifle if that term is meant to distinguish it from other sorts of rifles. For magazine capacity, you can find 22lr magazines with larger capacities than your typical AR mag, but calling one of those high powered would be a bit silly.
- uncoder0 7y ago
  The technical term for 5.56 and similar rounds is intermediate cartridge and includes 7.62×39mm, 5.56×45mm NATO, 5.45×39mm & 7.62x35mm among other cartridges. The definite from wiki is 'An intermediate cartridge is a rifle/carbine cartridge that is shorter than typical full-power battle rifle cartridges, but still has greater length than pistol/personal defense weapon cartridges.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_cartridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_cartridge
CompanionCuuube 7y ago
The metric is whether you can segment off a portion of the gun owning populace to push your gun control platform. It's a lot easier to accomplish if your hunting community doesn't join in the fight. You know how it goes "First they came for the socialists..."
- bifrost 7y ago
  Highly accurate.
username90 7y ago
.308 has 50% more energy than 5.56, but 5.56 has 4 times the energy of 9mm so it still has plenty of power. Also .308 is far overkill if you hunt the common small deers, people use it to hunt big game deer, for example moose.
- username90 7y ago
  For the downvoter, it is a myth that you need bigger than 5.56 to hunt deer, looks like hunter associations are banning it just to motivate that they get to keep their even more power guns. For example this requirement looks like it was explicitly made to forbid 5.56mm cartridges, they are not even mentioning energy: > The cartridge must fire a bullet with a minimum diameter of .243 inches (same as 6 mm). http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/deer/ http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/deer/ But for example in Sweden you are allowed to hunt the same size of deers using weapons with half the power of 5.56: 800 Joule. Only things you need bigger bullets than 5.56 are brown bear, moose and red deer which requires 2000 Joule. And if you think it is inhumane to kill 50kg deers using 1600 joule bullets, how many joules would you require that people use on a 700kg moose?
  - lagerstedt 7y ago
    What you say is about deer hunting in Sweden is true. But only for Roe deer. They are quite small deers that you are allowed to hunt with shotguns and Class 2 rifles, meaning 800j at 100m. That's typically a .222 Remington. The legality of this stands out when you take the rest of Swedish hunting laws into consideration. There reason is probably historic. There is a Swedish tradition to hunt Roe Deer these types of guns and so the lawmaker kept it. Even though Class 2 rifles are legal it's my impression that they have become less and less popular. Most people tend to use something like a 6.5x55, .308 or 30-06 since that gives you more margin of error. Roe deer is the also largest animal you're allowed to hunt with a Class 2 rifle. The next size deer (Fallow deer) is Class 1, meaning >2000J. You can use shotguns with slugs on boar and fallow deers, but not on Roe deer. This shows that it's not always clear how the lawmaker reasons. Hunting laws in different countries often reflect tradition and might not always have a sound base in science. In the US you are allowed to hunt with falcons, muzzleloaders and bows. That's criminal in Sweden.

neverartful 7y ago

Velocity is a big part of the equation.

kls 7y ago
Only when dealing with body armor. It's the reason the 45 ACP and the 12 gauge slug are still powerhouses even at relatively slow velocities, when compared to modern high velocity rounds. When body armor is taken out of the equation these rounds do as much of not more than their high velocity counterparts. You can compensate for some loss of mass with velocity but not all of it. It's similar the the differences between horsepower and torque. To paraphrase a popular meme, Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much of the wall you take with you.
sigstoat 7y ago
energy takes into account both mass and velocity. you can check the relative energies (and velocities) of common rounds on wikipedia. .308/7.62 has more energy, as the projectiles generally mass more than twice as much, and go only slightly slower.
partialrecall 7y ago
All* full sized rifle rounds are supersonic and cause the cavitation the 5.56 has become infamous for (e.g. bruh it goes so fast it's basically explosive! - overheard in a cafe). The terminal effects of 5.56 on flesh are severe, but not moreso than other rifle rounds. A full sized rifle round will cause more damage and can do it from much further away. * excepting a few that are deliberately manufactured to be subsonic, because they are niche products.
- jabl 7y ago
  IIUC many military 5.56mm rounds are designed to fragment upon impact (against the spirit if not the letter of the Geneva convention). 7.62mm rounds are (or at least used to be) designed to hold together in one piece.
  - ntw1103 7y ago
    The latest military 5.56 rounds are actually steel, and designed for penetration, not fragmentation. The US army is now using M855A1(Steel core, and steel penetrating tip), which replaces the M855(jacketed steel core) What you are thinking of is the 1899 Hague Convention, not the Geneva convention. Also, the USA was not a signing country. https://www.army.mil/article/41283/army_begins_shipping_improved_556mm_cartridge https://www.army.mil/article/41283/army_begins_shipping_impr...
  - bluedino 7y ago
    A single soldier can also carry a heck of a lot more 5.56 than 7.62 Then there's the urban legend of 5.56 being chosen because injured troops are more of a liability than dead troops
Rebelgecko 7y ago
If your equation is Energy=mass*velocity^2, the 3x mass difference is much more important than the 15% velocity difference. That's why a .308 has about twice the energy.

partialrecall 7y ago

> If not energy, by what metric could the latter be described as "high powered"? Well the Browning Hi-Power was so named for it's large magazine capacity. But I agree with the substance of what you're saying. 5.56 is not a "high power" rifle if that term is meant to distinguish it from other sorts of rifles. For magazine capacity, you can find 22lr magazines with larger capacities than your typical AR mag, but calling one of those high powered would be a bit silly.

uncoder0 7y ago
The technical term for 5.56 and similar rounds is intermediate cartridge and includes 7.62×39mm, 5.56×45mm NATO, 5.45×39mm & 7.62x35mm among other cartridges. The definite from wiki is 'An intermediate cartridge is a rifle/carbine cartridge that is shorter than typical full-power battle rifle cartridges, but still has greater length than pistol/personal defense weapon cartridges.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_cartridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_cartridge

CompanionCuuube 7y ago

The metric is whether you can segment off a portion of the gun owning populace to push your gun control platform. It's a lot easier to accomplish if your hunting community doesn't join in the fight. You know how it goes "First they came for the socialists..."

bifrost 7y ago
Highly accurate.

username90 7y ago

.308 has 50% more energy than 5.56, but 5.56 has 4 times the energy of 9mm so it still has plenty of power. Also .308 is far overkill if you hunt the common small deers, people use it to hunt big game deer, for example moose.

username90 7y ago
For the downvoter, it is a myth that you need bigger than 5.56 to hunt deer, looks like hunter associations are banning it just to motivate that they get to keep their even more power guns. For example this requirement looks like it was explicitly made to forbid 5.56mm cartridges, they are not even mentioning energy: > The cartridge must fire a bullet with a minimum diameter of .243 inches (same as 6 mm). http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/deer/ http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/deer/ But for example in Sweden you are allowed to hunt the same size of deers using weapons with half the power of 5.56: 800 Joule. Only things you need bigger bullets than 5.56 are brown bear, moose and red deer which requires 2000 Joule. And if you think it is inhumane to kill 50kg deers using 1600 joule bullets, how many joules would you require that people use on a 700kg moose?
- lagerstedt 7y ago
  What you say is about deer hunting in Sweden is true. But only for Roe deer. They are quite small deers that you are allowed to hunt with shotguns and Class 2 rifles, meaning 800j at 100m. That's typically a .222 Remington. The legality of this stands out when you take the rest of Swedish hunting laws into consideration. There reason is probably historic. There is a Swedish tradition to hunt Roe Deer these types of guns and so the lawmaker kept it. Even though Class 2 rifles are legal it's my impression that they have become less and less popular. Most people tend to use something like a 6.5x55, .308 or 30-06 since that gives you more margin of error. Roe deer is the also largest animal you're allowed to hunt with a Class 2 rifle. The next size deer (Fallow deer) is Class 1, meaning >2000J. You can use shotguns with slugs on boar and fallow deers, but not on Roe deer. This shows that it's not always clear how the lawmaker reasons. Hunting laws in different countries often reflect tradition and might not always have a sound base in science. In the US you are allowed to hunt with falcons, muzzleloaders and bows. That's criminal in Sweden.