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> The deep state is just the permanent bureaucracy that sticks around as presidents come and go. It's also far from a monolithic group of people with a similar

by davidw 7y ago

> The deep state is just the permanent bureaucracy that sticks around as presidents come and go. It's also far from a monolithic group of people with a similar point of view.

derefr 7y ago
You could say the workers of such a permanent bureaucracy are at least united in the belief in the benefits of there being such a permanent bureaucracy; and more specifically, in the benefits of "non-partisan" bureaucracy, bureaucracy that isn't a catspaw of the party in power. (As opposed to a political spoils system, where each new administration comes with its own Civil Service.) And, because of that implicit endorsement of non-partisanship as "how the job gets done", these bureaucrats tend to also be considered technocrats: people who evaluate policy mostly on how the ROI works out for "the people" or "the state", rather than in how it figures into any particular political narrative, or into their own "courtly favour" with the administration. The label of "technocrat" then tends to put the workers of this bureaucracy into natural opposition—political-rhetoric-wise—with populist politicians, who as a rule evaluate policy by how it "plays" with the man-on-the-street (who has no knowledge of statecraft), and who tend to ignore what a policy will (or won't) actually be likely to accomplish. This opposition carries whether any given bureaucrat has any actual underlying opposition to the current populist sentiment or not. So there's at least one other thing these bureaucrats will tend to agree on: to the degree that there is, in a political "era", a populist fervour in the country, bureaucrats will be unilaterally hated by the man on the street, due to the rhetorical manipulations of populist politicians.
- natmaka 7y ago
  If bureaucrats/technocrats "guard" us against "populists", who guards them? Most bureaucrats and technocrats are just like any other human beings: often partisan, selfish and not decisively more able to distinguish a "good" decision from a bad one. At best statecraft is the ultimate field for The Iron Law of Bureaucracy https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Would you talk about soldiers, police officers, teachers, and firefighters the same way? The word "bureaucrat" is just a catchall term for the people who work for the government and can't possibly be important or decent people because they don't occupy any mental space in your head.
    - natmaka 7y ago
      > The word "bureaucrat" is just a catchall term for the people who work for the government "People who work for the government" are "civil servants" (or "public servants") A bureaucrat is a member of an "administrative system governing a large institution". Each civil servant has some power when it comes to do what/how he wants to. On this behalf bureaucrats and (even more) technocrats are among the most powerful. > soldiers A soldier must obey (nearly) blindly, becoming a mere instrument for brass. Brass bureaucrats/technocrats have their own political agenda, and many adjust their actions accordingly. > police officers Most aren't bureaucrats. Theoretically they enforce laws, even if they don't agree with them. In practice many adjust their actions according to their own political agenda. > teachers Most aren't bureaucrats. Many teach according to their own political agenda, or just guard while repeating state propaganda. > firefighters Most aren't bureaucrats/technocrats. Moreover their field is not politically-loaded (nearly everyone agrees about what they have to do, and how).

by davidw 7y ago

> The deep state is just the permanent bureaucracy that sticks around as presidents come and go. It's also far from a monolithic group of people with a similar point of view.

derefr 7y ago

You could say the workers of such a permanent bureaucracy are at least united in the belief in the benefits of there being such a permanent bureaucracy; and more specifically, in the benefits of "non-partisan" bureaucracy, bureaucracy that isn't a catspaw of the party in power. (As opposed to a political spoils system, where each new administration comes with its own Civil Service.) And, because of that implicit endorsement of non-partisanship as "how the job gets done", these bureaucrats tend to also be considered technocrats: people who evaluate policy mostly on how the ROI works out for "the people" or "the state", rather than in how it figures into any particular political narrative, or into their own "courtly favour" with the administration. The label of "technocrat" then tends to put the workers of this bureaucracy into natural opposition—political-rhetoric-wise—with populist politicians, who as a rule evaluate policy by how it "plays" with the man-on-the-street (who has no knowledge of statecraft), and who tend to ignore what a policy will (or won't) actually be likely to accomplish. This opposition carries whether any given bureaucrat has any actual underlying opposition to the current populist sentiment or not. So there's at least one other thing these bureaucrats will tend to agree on: to the degree that there is, in a political "era", a populist fervour in the country, bureaucrats will be unilaterally hated by the man on the street, due to the rhetorical manipulations of populist politicians.

natmaka 7y ago
If bureaucrats/technocrats "guard" us against "populists", who guards them? Most bureaucrats and technocrats are just like any other human beings: often partisan, selfish and not decisively more able to distinguish a "good" decision from a bad one. At best statecraft is the ultimate field for The Iron Law of Bureaucracy https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Would you talk about soldiers, police officers, teachers, and firefighters the same way? The word "bureaucrat" is just a catchall term for the people who work for the government and can't possibly be important or decent people because they don't occupy any mental space in your head.
  - natmaka 7y ago
    > The word "bureaucrat" is just a catchall term for the people who work for the government "People who work for the government" are "civil servants" (or "public servants") A bureaucrat is a member of an "administrative system governing a large institution". Each civil servant has some power when it comes to do what/how he wants to. On this behalf bureaucrats and (even more) technocrats are among the most powerful. > soldiers A soldier must obey (nearly) blindly, becoming a mere instrument for brass. Brass bureaucrats/technocrats have their own political agenda, and many adjust their actions accordingly. > police officers Most aren't bureaucrats. Theoretically they enforce laws, even if they don't agree with them. In practice many adjust their actions according to their own political agenda. > teachers Most aren't bureaucrats. Many teach according to their own political agenda, or just guard while repeating state propaganda. > firefighters Most aren't bureaucrats/technocrats. Moreover their field is not politically-loaded (nearly everyone agrees about what they have to do, and how).