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It only sounds crazy if you don't believe the "deep state" exists. It does, it's just not exactly what Trump claims it is.

debaserab2 7y ago
> It does Every definition of the "deep state" that I've heard is usually based on a vague conspiracy theory or is an obvious truth that draws conclusions about the intentions of state actors without providing any evidence. Can you prove me wrong?
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  Can I prove that "every definition [you've] heard is not usually based on a vague conspiracy theory or is not an obvious truth that draws conclusions about the intentions of state actors without providing any evidence." No.
  - debaserab2 7y ago
    Ok. What is the deep state to you?
    - staticautomatic 7y ago
      I would define it as something like this: The deep state is a set of individuals who use the powers granted to them by the government in order to further their own power interests and/or the power interests of extra-governmental entities regardless of whether the government and its constituents share in or benefit from those interests.
      - saghm 7y ago
        Couldn't you argue that this could fit plenty of elected politicians? This doesn't seem to capture any part of what people seem to mean by the term "deep"
        debaserab2 7y ago
        Yeah, I don't know anyone who uses the term "deep state" unironically that doesn't also have strong opinions about what that actually means.
        staticautomatic 7y ago
        Sure. If you think that's an argument against the definition, then perhaps you could elaborate. Also, what do you think people seem to mean by the term "deep" that isn't captured?
        caseysoftware 7y ago
        The distinction between an elected politician and a "deep state" figure in this regard would be their identity. You can probably name your Senators, maybe your House Member, and probably your local Mayor. You may have even voted for/against them. What about the Deputy Undersecretary of Whatever who is in charge of that topic near and dear to your heart? You didn't elect them. You can't even name them. In fact, you probably don't even know that job and person exist. I was in the Department of Justice and worked for a Deputy Assistant Attorney General in an agency you've never heard of just down the street from DOJ HQ. There were many lifers (worked there pushing 20 years) who I saw and heard say "Eh, I don't like the AG so I don't follow that policy." Fundamentally, it's no different than the CEO of a major company saying "we're going to do X" and various middle managers saying "Nah, that's a bad idea. I'm going to ignore it."
rmilejczz 7y ago
Right, I get that “technically” there is a deep state it’s not some strange esoteric knowledge. That really doesn’t make it any more sane to plan a war against a poorly defined adversary, this is a hall mark of delusion. I don’t see why my comment warranted downvotes
- airstrike 7y ago
  > I don’t see why my comment warranted downvotes It doesn't, really. I think this audience probably has a high representation of people who regard the "deep state" as a real entity that we should fight against and take issue on a personal level with your well-founded claim that the guy is a bit cuckoo
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
bsder 7y ago
People who believe in the "deep state" but aren't cranks or self-serving propagandists call it what it is: "the bureaucracy" or "the civil service". And, oddly, it turns out to be one of the best inventions of modern government as it keeps things running in an orderly fashion in the face of leadership changes.

debaserab2 7y ago

> It does Every definition of the "deep state" that I've heard is usually based on a vague conspiracy theory or is an obvious truth that draws conclusions about the intentions of state actors without providing any evidence. Can you prove me wrong?

staticautomatic 7y ago
Can I prove that "every definition [you've] heard is not usually based on a vague conspiracy theory or is not an obvious truth that draws conclusions about the intentions of state actors without providing any evidence." No.
- debaserab2 7y ago
  Ok. What is the deep state to you?
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    I would define it as something like this: The deep state is a set of individuals who use the powers granted to them by the government in order to further their own power interests and/or the power interests of extra-governmental entities regardless of whether the government and its constituents share in or benefit from those interests.
    - saghm 7y ago
      Couldn't you argue that this could fit plenty of elected politicians? This doesn't seem to capture any part of what people seem to mean by the term "deep"
      - debaserab2 7y ago
        Yeah, I don't know anyone who uses the term "deep state" unironically that doesn't also have strong opinions about what that actually means.
      - staticautomatic 7y ago
        Sure. If you think that's an argument against the definition, then perhaps you could elaborate. Also, what do you think people seem to mean by the term "deep" that isn't captured?
      - caseysoftware 7y ago
        The distinction between an elected politician and a "deep state" figure in this regard would be their identity. You can probably name your Senators, maybe your House Member, and probably your local Mayor. You may have even voted for/against them. What about the Deputy Undersecretary of Whatever who is in charge of that topic near and dear to your heart? You didn't elect them. You can't even name them. In fact, you probably don't even know that job and person exist. I was in the Department of Justice and worked for a Deputy Assistant Attorney General in an agency you've never heard of just down the street from DOJ HQ. There were many lifers (worked there pushing 20 years) who I saw and heard say "Eh, I don't like the AG so I don't follow that policy." Fundamentally, it's no different than the CEO of a major company saying "we're going to do X" and various middle managers saying "Nah, that's a bad idea. I'm going to ignore it."

rmilejczz 7y ago

Right, I get that “technically” there is a deep state it’s not some strange esoteric knowledge. That really doesn’t make it any more sane to plan a war against a poorly defined adversary, this is a hall mark of delusion. I don’t see why my comment warranted downvotes

airstrike 7y ago
> I don’t see why my comment warranted downvotes It doesn't, really. I think this audience probably has a high representation of people who regard the "deep state" as a real entity that we should fight against and take issue on a personal level with your well-founded claim that the guy is a bit cuckoo
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

bsder 7y ago

People who believe in the "deep state" but aren't cranks or self-serving propagandists call it what it is: "the bureaucracy" or "the civil service". And, oddly, it turns out to be one of the best inventions of modern government as it keeps things running in an orderly fashion in the face of leadership changes.