8 ms·

Safari 13 Is Out

78 points by freediver 7y ago

svieira 7y ago
* Added support for the Pointer Events API enabling consistent access to mouse, trackpad, touch, and Apple Pencil events. https://caniuse.com/#feat=pointer https://caniuse.com/#feat=pointer - now you can use one unified event capture everywhere, instead of having to choose between "click" and "touch"!
- ilkkao 7y ago
  Nice to see that all browsers support Pointer Events now. This Microsoft proposed standard was initially fiercely opposed by Google and Apple some years ago.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    Well that was before they were shipping devices with a stylus.
- robocat 7y ago
  Mostly you can just need a click event now since "fastclick" can now work on all modern devices (albeit may need meta viewport or CSS). In my experience writing a component suite I have found I don't use touch[a-z]+ events that much (just like mouse[a-z]+ events don't get used much either). I would be very careful before believing the promise of Pointer Events, unless you need to be on the bleeding edge for some reason. When I first used Pointer Events, there were heaps of corner cases that bit me hard. I would be especially careful if using them with virtual Dom updates or very dynamic pages - one of the worst pain points was issues with events when elements were deleted/replaced.
  - SeanAnderson 7y ago
    I'm currently rewriting a legacy application to use Pointer Events + pepjs polyfill. Your experiences don't align super well with mine. I'm curious as to why. What does vdom diffing / dynamic page content have to do with using pointer/touch/mouse events? If anything, the last scenario you describe sounds like it would be mitigated by use of https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/setPointerCapture https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/set... which is only available to PointerEvent implementations?
    - robocat 7y ago
      I found setPointerCapture() caused multiple bugs in corner cases (including one regression a while ago that completely broke our touch support in Chrome desktop). Maybe the support has improved in Chrome and Firefox, but I would be very careful to test Safari support before I relied 100% upon Touch Events.
- jancsika 7y ago
  The Pointer Events spec is a real joy. For example, if you want to roll your own "drag" event for a given element, the API allows you to do this without reference to document or a parent container element. You can just declare that the element currently receiving pointer events capture subsequent pointer events until you release it[1]. Additionally, the API naturally lends itself to patterns that can easily be extended for multi-touch situations. I'm quite curious which developer led the charge for this API and how they warded off committee meddling by people who lacked knowledge about the benefits of this approach. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/setPointerCapture https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/set...
smegmasamurai 7y ago
> Added support for FIDO2-compliant USB security keys with the Web Authentication standard in Safari on macOS. well this makes me happy at least
- gumby 7y ago
  I wish there were a way for third parties to enter their protocols into the secure enclave on the Mac and iOS devices. Then you could pay yubikey but not have to carry an extra device. Likely this would be difficult on levels I can't even imagine.
- axismundi 7y ago
  Does it work on IOS?
  - cwt137 7y ago
    It says for MacOS, so no.
  - smegmasamurai 7y ago
    no... but we're getting there...
  - fmajid 7y ago
    Sadly no, but perhaps next year if the rumors of a USB-C iPhone 12 are true.
  - mikhailt 7y ago
    I believe iOS 13 does via NFC. Yubico was just talking about this: https://www.yubico.com/2019/09/yubico-ios-authentication-expands-to-include-nfc/ https://www.yubico.com/2019/09/yubico-ios-authentication-exp...
- simplify 7y ago
  Any recommendations on security keys for personal use?
pat2man 7y ago
Safari continues to lead the path for privacy and security. WebAuthN is a welcome change although supporting the built in TouchID in Apple devices would have been nice. The new password change prompt is definitely a plus.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  Safari is the very last major browser to support WebAuthN. If anything, it is following the path. https://caniuse.com/#search=webauthn https://caniuse.com/#search=webauthn
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
glogla 7y ago
Apple removed the ability to use uBlock Origin or similar. I tried few ad blocker from the app store, but non of them block Youtube's video ad, making it useless. We still have Firefox for now I guess.
- cygned 7y ago
  I use AdGuard on iOS and iPad OS and it works
- bouke 7y ago
  Extensions for Safari are distributed through the AppStore. I currently have uBlock (not Origin) installed as an extension.
  - ubercow13 7y ago
    You’re using it on 13?
    - glogla 7y ago
      uBlock (not origin) is by the same company as AdBlock Plus - "acceptable ads" (e.g. pay to play), privacy issues, general scummy behavior. I would suggest to steer away from it.
- LeoPanthera 7y ago
  I think AdGuard will do what you want, but I feel uncomfortable about blocking ads from sites that provide you with an option to pay to remove them, as does YouTube Premium. It's difficult to even use the malware defense with YouTube, since YouTube's ads are just videos.
- mml 7y ago
  wipr from the App Store is a serviceable ad blocker, not as good as ublock origin, but (mostly) does the job for me at least. I miss the ability to kill specific elements ad-hoc.
  - 7y ago
bouke 7y ago
For those wondering how to install this update in macOS 10.14 Mojave; it is distributed as a Software Update in System Preferences.
LeoPanthera 7y ago
This update kills Tampermonkey. I only used it for a very specific reason - I had a script which removes multi-item eBay listings where one item is 99 cents (typically some kind of keychain) and the other items are the actual listed item at a much higher price. It's a technique used to break the "sort by price" function, since it sorts by the cheapest item in a multi-item listing.
thorum 7y ago
> Added support for the Visual Viewport API for adjusting web content to avoid overlays, such as the onscreen keyboard. This is awesome for WYSIWYG editors, most of which have struggled to keep the formatting toolbar visible on mobile screens because there's been no good way to detect whether the keyboard is open.
janfoeh 7y ago
It really, really is a shame that they removed proper extensions. While Safari never had a good extension story, it was at least bearable, and in all other regards its simply the best Mac browser. Now I have to take a really hard look at switching back to Firefox, and that would be a downgrade in almost every regard I care about. Pity.
- fnordsensei 7y ago
  What's a "proper" extension? The only things in the release notes seem to be about broadening the API somewhat.
  - mfer 7y ago
    There were legacy extensions delivered outside the app store. Those are deprecated and with Safari 13 were removed. There are other extensions delivered through the App Store you can install. For example, there is a uBlock extension there.
    - fnordsensei 7y ago
      What could be driving that, I wonder? Are they concerned with malware? Regardless, it seems like a big thing to omit from the notes.
      - janfoeh 7y ago
        If I were to guess, probably performance and battery life. They emphasized efficiency when they introduced their own compiled blacklist API for content blockers.
      - mfer 7y ago
        > Removed support for Legacy Safari Extensions. It was in the notes. That's the line.
      - olliej 7y ago
        At a guess: Engineering overhead of two separate extension models, the "real extension" model can't do the kind of cross process communication a lot of extensions really need (password managers, etc). Then performance problems of extensions injecting and running a pile of JS into all pages. But yeah, I am not looking forward to losing ublock. I (Safari fanboy) will probably delay updating as long as possible.
dantondwa 7y ago
Just opened it again out of curiosity and the first message I got is that the Bitwarden and Pocket extensions are not supported anymore. Oh, well, as much as I'd like to use it, a desktop browser without extensions is dead to me. There are some extensions that provide me with little quality of life improvements and whatnot. Since, when I'm using my computer, I'm almost always using a browser, these things become important. I wonder why Apple decided to axe extensions and not support WebExtensions, that at this point have become a standard shared by Firefox and Chrome. Too bad.
zyang 7y ago
One thing Safari really needs to fix: suggesting a secure password but then not save it. I have been trolled too many times.
- KenanSulayman 7y ago
  This.. I'm sure it's happening because the respective websites use JavaScript to submit the form data via XHR, but I've been burned so many times by the password generator that I'm writing down the password from the field before submitting it. Very frustrating! Entering it in the actual login form will then usually trigger a save of the credentials.
  - gumby 7y ago
    Nice thing about 1Password (just a user) is that when you submit a generated password it is also temporarily copied to the clipboard. I paste it somewhere (typically at a bash prompt) in case this happens if it does make or adjust the correct entry. Sucks, but there are, as they say, no standards. The nice thing about it being at the bash prompt is I can just press ^U and it doesn't end up stored anywhere (and even if it did it would be a random, contextless string).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
davidhyde 7y ago
Safari is the new internet explorer. Too little, too late.
- altec3 7y ago
  Mobile Safari, yes. At least from a webdev standpoint. Desktop Safari isn't as bad as IE imo.
  - m45t3r 7y ago
    I think the main problem in iOS is that Apple requires you to use Safari engine, even if you have the resources to create a competing browser (like Google or Mozilla). So all alternative browsers in iOS are simple skins of Safari. If Apple allowed alternative browser engines in iOS, the situation wouldn't be so bad.
- Synaesthesia 7y ago
  No nothing is the new internet explorer. We don’t have a situation even close to that. IE has over 90% share and wasn’t updated from version 6 for years and was way behind its competitors. Safari is frequently updated and at least on a par with its peers, supports standards.
- frou_dh 7y ago
  It's not insightful commentary to just repeat a meme phrase https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22safari%20is%20the%20new%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- favorited 7y ago
  Nope. Chrome is the new IE. Standards don't matter when you have a high enough market share- you can do whatever you want and people have to support it. IE was the reference browser for the web in the 90s, and Chrome is that today.
  - benologist 7y ago
brackle 7y ago
Can it play 4K videos on YouTube?
- ksec 7y ago
  Nope, and probably ( I hope ) never will. The chances of Apple support VP9 is slim, and in case you want to point out Apple is a Founding Member of Open Media Alliance, as of today it still doesn't have Apple's Official Logo in its member page. Compared to MC-IF, an industry forum focusing on next generation H.266 / VCC which Apple is also a Founding Member, has an official logo from Day 1.
tompic823 7y ago
> Added the ability to Safari for macOS to share your screen with others using only web technologies. Plug-ins are no longer required. This is a nice enhancement. I previously used the Screen Sharing feature that was buried in Messages, which somehow stuck around from when it was iChat.
aparashk 7y ago
Upon completing the Safari upgrade, I was forced to upgrade to 1Password 7.x, which forced me to upgrade my Dropbox password storage to a new file format… an avalanche of changes and I am afraid I may corner myself into having to spend more on 1Password.
- cmer 7y ago
  1Password is an amazing piece of software that is worth every penny. I used to always buy my license instead of the subscription but recently switched because frankly, I know it's a better business model for them, and I get so much value our of 1P I don't mind paying. I've been a 1P user since before 1.0. It's too easy to always try to squeeze every penny out of these small companies, but I think it's worth really thinking hard about their reality, and how much their software is actually worth to us.

78 points by freediver 7y ago

* Added support for the Pointer Events API enabling consistent access to mouse, trackpad, touch, and Apple Pencil events. https://caniuse.com/#feat=pointer https://caniuse.com/#feat=pointer - now you can use one unified event capture everywhere, instead of having to choose between "click" and "touch"!

ilkkao 7y ago
Nice to see that all browsers support Pointer Events now. This Microsoft proposed standard was initially fiercely opposed by Google and Apple some years ago.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  Well that was before they were shipping devices with a stylus.
robocat 7y ago
Mostly you can just need a click event now since "fastclick" can now work on all modern devices (albeit may need meta viewport or CSS). In my experience writing a component suite I have found I don't use touch[a-z]+ events that much (just like mouse[a-z]+ events don't get used much either). I would be very careful before believing the promise of Pointer Events, unless you need to be on the bleeding edge for some reason. When I first used Pointer Events, there were heaps of corner cases that bit me hard. I would be especially careful if using them with virtual Dom updates or very dynamic pages - one of the worst pain points was issues with events when elements were deleted/replaced.
- SeanAnderson 7y ago
  I'm currently rewriting a legacy application to use Pointer Events + pepjs polyfill. Your experiences don't align super well with mine. I'm curious as to why. What does vdom diffing / dynamic page content have to do with using pointer/touch/mouse events? If anything, the last scenario you describe sounds like it would be mitigated by use of https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/setPointerCapture https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/set... which is only available to PointerEvent implementations?
  - robocat 7y ago
    I found setPointerCapture() caused multiple bugs in corner cases (including one regression a while ago that completely broke our touch support in Chrome desktop). Maybe the support has improved in Chrome and Firefox, but I would be very careful to test Safari support before I relied 100% upon Touch Events.
jancsika 7y ago
The Pointer Events spec is a real joy. For example, if you want to roll your own "drag" event for a given element, the API allows you to do this without reference to document or a parent container element. You can just declare that the element currently receiving pointer events capture subsequent pointer events until you release it[1]. Additionally, the API naturally lends itself to patterns that can easily be extended for multi-touch situations. I'm quite curious which developer led the charge for this API and how they warded off committee meddling by people who lacked knowledge about the benefits of this approach. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/setPointerCapture https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/set...

smegmasamurai 7y ago

> Added support for FIDO2-compliant USB security keys with the Web Authentication standard in Safari on macOS. well this makes me happy at least

gumby 7y ago
I wish there were a way for third parties to enter their protocols into the secure enclave on the Mac and iOS devices. Then you could pay yubikey but not have to carry an extra device. Likely this would be difficult on levels I can't even imagine.
axismundi 7y ago
Does it work on IOS?
- cwt137 7y ago
  It says for MacOS, so no.
- smegmasamurai 7y ago
  no... but we're getting there...
- fmajid 7y ago
  Sadly no, but perhaps next year if the rumors of a USB-C iPhone 12 are true.
- mikhailt 7y ago
  I believe iOS 13 does via NFC. Yubico was just talking about this: https://www.yubico.com/2019/09/yubico-ios-authentication-expands-to-include-nfc/ https://www.yubico.com/2019/09/yubico-ios-authentication-exp...
simplify 7y ago
Any recommendations on security keys for personal use?

pat2man 7y ago

Safari continues to lead the path for privacy and security. WebAuthN is a welcome change although supporting the built in TouchID in Apple devices would have been nice. The new password change prompt is definitely a plus.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
Safari is the very last major browser to support WebAuthN. If anything, it is following the path. https://caniuse.com/#search=webauthn https://caniuse.com/#search=webauthn

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

glogla 7y ago

Apple removed the ability to use uBlock Origin or similar. I tried few ad blocker from the app store, but non of them block Youtube's video ad, making it useless. We still have Firefox for now I guess.

cygned 7y ago
I use AdGuard on iOS and iPad OS and it works
bouke 7y ago
Extensions for Safari are distributed through the AppStore. I currently have uBlock (not Origin) installed as an extension.
- ubercow13 7y ago
  You’re using it on 13?
  - glogla 7y ago
    uBlock (not origin) is by the same company as AdBlock Plus - "acceptable ads" (e.g. pay to play), privacy issues, general scummy behavior. I would suggest to steer away from it.
LeoPanthera 7y ago
I think AdGuard will do what you want, but I feel uncomfortable about blocking ads from sites that provide you with an option to pay to remove them, as does YouTube Premium. It's difficult to even use the malware defense with YouTube, since YouTube's ads are just videos.
mml 7y ago
wipr from the App Store is a serviceable ad blocker, not as good as ublock origin, but (mostly) does the job for me at least. I miss the ability to kill specific elements ad-hoc.
- 7y ago

bouke 7y ago

For those wondering how to install this update in macOS 10.14 Mojave; it is distributed as a Software Update in System Preferences.

LeoPanthera 7y ago

This update kills Tampermonkey. I only used it for a very specific reason - I had a script which removes multi-item eBay listings where one item is 99 cents (typically some kind of keychain) and the other items are the actual listed item at a much higher price. It's a technique used to break the "sort by price" function, since it sorts by the cheapest item in a multi-item listing.

thorum 7y ago

> Added support for the Visual Viewport API for adjusting web content to avoid overlays, such as the onscreen keyboard. This is awesome for WYSIWYG editors, most of which have struggled to keep the formatting toolbar visible on mobile screens because there's been no good way to detect whether the keyboard is open.

janfoeh 7y ago

It really, really is a shame that they removed proper extensions. While Safari never had a good extension story, it was at least bearable, and in all other regards its simply the best Mac browser. Now I have to take a really hard look at switching back to Firefox, and that would be a downgrade in almost every regard I care about. Pity.

fnordsensei 7y ago
What's a "proper" extension? The only things in the release notes seem to be about broadening the API somewhat.
- mfer 7y ago
  There were legacy extensions delivered outside the app store. Those are deprecated and with Safari 13 were removed. There are other extensions delivered through the App Store you can install. For example, there is a uBlock extension there.
  - fnordsensei 7y ago
    What could be driving that, I wonder? Are they concerned with malware? Regardless, it seems like a big thing to omit from the notes.
    - janfoeh 7y ago
      If I were to guess, probably performance and battery life. They emphasized efficiency when they introduced their own compiled blacklist API for content blockers.
    - mfer 7y ago
      > Removed support for Legacy Safari Extensions. It was in the notes. That's the line.
    - olliej 7y ago
      At a guess: Engineering overhead of two separate extension models, the "real extension" model can't do the kind of cross process communication a lot of extensions really need (password managers, etc). Then performance problems of extensions injecting and running a pile of JS into all pages. But yeah, I am not looking forward to losing ublock. I (Safari fanboy) will probably delay updating as long as possible.

dantondwa 7y ago

Just opened it again out of curiosity and the first message I got is that the Bitwarden and Pocket extensions are not supported anymore. Oh, well, as much as I'd like to use it, a desktop browser without extensions is dead to me. There are some extensions that provide me with little quality of life improvements and whatnot. Since, when I'm using my computer, I'm almost always using a browser, these things become important. I wonder why Apple decided to axe extensions and not support WebExtensions, that at this point have become a standard shared by Firefox and Chrome. Too bad.

zyang 7y ago

One thing Safari really needs to fix: suggesting a secure password but then not save it. I have been trolled too many times.

KenanSulayman 7y ago
This.. I'm sure it's happening because the respective websites use JavaScript to submit the form data via XHR, but I've been burned so many times by the password generator that I'm writing down the password from the field before submitting it. Very frustrating! Entering it in the actual login form will then usually trigger a save of the credentials.
- gumby 7y ago
  Nice thing about 1Password (just a user) is that when you submit a generated password it is also temporarily copied to the clipboard. I paste it somewhere (typically at a bash prompt) in case this happens if it does make or adjust the correct entry. Sucks, but there are, as they say, no standards. The nice thing about it being at the bash prompt is I can just press ^U and it doesn't end up stored anywhere (and even if it did it would be a random, contextless string).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

davidhyde 7y ago

Safari is the new internet explorer. Too little, too late.

altec3 7y ago
Mobile Safari, yes. At least from a webdev standpoint. Desktop Safari isn't as bad as IE imo.
- m45t3r 7y ago
  I think the main problem in iOS is that Apple requires you to use Safari engine, even if you have the resources to create a competing browser (like Google or Mozilla). So all alternative browsers in iOS are simple skins of Safari. If Apple allowed alternative browser engines in iOS, the situation wouldn't be so bad.
Synaesthesia 7y ago
No nothing is the new internet explorer. We don’t have a situation even close to that. IE has over 90% share and wasn’t updated from version 6 for years and was way behind its competitors. Safari is frequently updated and at least on a par with its peers, supports standards.
frou_dh 7y ago
It's not insightful commentary to just repeat a meme phrase https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22safari%20is%20the%20new%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
favorited 7y ago
Nope. Chrome is the new IE. Standards don't matter when you have a high enough market share- you can do whatever you want and people have to support it. IE was the reference browser for the web in the 90s, and Chrome is that today.
- benologist 7y ago

brackle 7y ago

Can it play 4K videos on YouTube?

ksec 7y ago
Nope, and probably ( I hope ) never will. The chances of Apple support VP9 is slim, and in case you want to point out Apple is a Founding Member of Open Media Alliance, as of today it still doesn't have Apple's Official Logo in its member page. Compared to MC-IF, an industry forum focusing on next generation H.266 / VCC which Apple is also a Founding Member, has an official logo from Day 1.

tompic823 7y ago

> Added the ability to Safari for macOS to share your screen with others using only web technologies. Plug-ins are no longer required. This is a nice enhancement. I previously used the Screen Sharing feature that was buried in Messages, which somehow stuck around from when it was iChat.

aparashk 7y ago

Upon completing the Safari upgrade, I was forced to upgrade to 1Password 7.x, which forced me to upgrade my Dropbox password storage to a new file format… an avalanche of changes and I am afraid I may corner myself into having to spend more on 1Password.

cmer 7y ago
1Password is an amazing piece of software that is worth every penny. I used to always buy my license instead of the subscription but recently switched because frankly, I know it's a better business model for them, and I get so much value our of 1P I don't mind paying. I've been a 1P user since before 1.0. It's too easy to always try to squeeze every penny out of these small companies, but I think it's worth really thinking hard about their reality, and how much their software is actually worth to us.