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Have to read more to be able to comment meaningfully, but an early red flag is distilled in this statement: "I am looking for a formula for mass-production of

Have to read more to be able to comment meaningfully, but an early red flag is distilled in this statement: "I am looking for a formula for mass-production of little Nobel Prize winners, researchers, engineers, and creative problem solvers" There are many potential educational systems that would do better for the top [1|5|10]% of learners, while doing far worse for the remainder of the bell curve (however it is defined). One has to be upfront and honest with themselves, and audience, if the goals and proposals will benefit all overall, or select few. I am not yet convinced that less-structured approach will provide clear benefits for everybody :-/

algaeontoast 7y ago
I have similar concerns with people who claim existing education would massively benefit if homework didn’t exist as a teaching tool or means of gauging progress and development.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  There is research into this - and it seems to work well for elementary school kids, with a minimum of homework for older students. (universities are different). Scandinavian countries do this and always score well. AT least here in Norway, they also do not hold elementary kids back, but work with them appropriately. There is more than one way of gauging development and progress.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  There's a kernel of truth behind that one, FWIW. A growing body of evidence indicates that there can be too much of a good thing: Past a certain point, more homework actually hinders learning rather than helping it. By way of analogy, it's not at all unlike how most weightlifting advice says to give your muscles a day of rest in between workout sessions. e.g., I recently watched a talk where a researcher cited a study that found that putting kids in remedial literacy programs, with all their drilling and whatnot, seems to do more harm than good. The (deliberately over-simplified) impression I got was that, if you leave the kids alone instead of bothering them, you'll generally see a markedly bigger improvement through simple regression to the mean. That this gets over-simiplified into a simple "homework bad" in the popular sphere is unfortunate. Sadly, nobody has yet figured out a way to inoculate science so that it can survive on Facebook.
  - algaeontoast 7y ago
    I totally agree. I still think homework has utility at least in helping students develop patterns of study and figuring out problems without help from a teacher available at arms length. Too much is definitely a detriment to anyone’s education, but I think this usually happens when classroom instruction is imbalanced with material covered as “homework”. By far I learned the most in a physics class in high school with homework but you could correct a number of problems in class if you completed it at home (not easy). I liked this balance, but there were still students who seemed to lack the discipline to actually just do the homework and not wait for class to see how many solutions they could copy.
james_s_tayler 7y ago
If he's looking for a formula for mass production of Nobel Prize winners he probably hasn't yet discovered the central limit theorem and thought through its implications for his little idea.
- de_watcher 7y ago
  Even in the 3rd world countries some teachers who know what they're doing have managed to organize schools that rely on competition as the admission process. That works pretty well for not losing potential Nobel Prize winners. Mass production of Nobel Prize winners would be just an act of violence towards the "more average" children.
  - james_s_tayler 7y ago
    That example illustrates my point perfectly. Not only are the people normally distributed, the schools are too. That tippy, tippy top will always ever only be a handful. That's not to say we can't raise the bar globally, but realistically we're probably at or close to the ceiling ;f what's possible for mass education.
spamizbad 7y ago
People routinely criticize rigid schooling yet the very people they aspire to emulate are products of such systems. The people who often struggled in such systems (artists, athletes, celebrities) are looked down upon. Even entrepreneurs, by in large, did well in school. For every Steve Jobs there's 10 other founders who were former super students that aggressively tracked into tier-1 schools through hard work and (yes) conformity. No offense but every founder story I read about their "rebellion" is almost silly. It's always like "My parents wanted me to be an investment banker but I said NO!"
- Barrin92 7y ago
  Yes, if you look at extreme versions like the Soviet system it by and large did what it was supposed to do and produced for all it's other flaws a pretty solid amount of very well trained experts, and a very highly educated general populace. I'd include athletes from your list as well because they also tend to thrive in very rigid environments, artists and celebrities less so. In my experience whenever I hear people talk about unschooling or free thought for their children it isn't about children at all but about the political beliefs of their parents. There's still this kind of 60s hippie or California 'free spirit' individualist attitude that also has a renaissance in 'hacker' circles. It seems to me more about the beliefs of a certain social class than generally about education.
  - Fins 7y ago
    That's a rather charitable view of the Soviet education system, probably colored by the biased selection you'd see in the West. By 1990, that "very highly educated general populace" was setting out jars of water in front of their TV screens, so they would get charged with healing powers of ESPers
- devoply 7y ago
  I don't think schooling has much to do with people's failure or success as much as other factors that are either inherited genetically, financially, or socially. If you want high performers make sure they have the best genetics, come from secure families, have lots of money, and have a wealthy and powerful social network. Outside of that we have lottery winners and for those theorizing about to reproduce them is stupid as they are in fact lottery winners that won because of chance not for any good reasonable reason.
technothrasher 7y ago
> I am not yet convinced that less-structured approach will provide clear benefits for everybody I'll go even further and say I'm convinced that a less-structured approach will clearly not provide benefits for everybody. I had my boy in a Montessori environment, which is more unstructured and focused on the type of self-learning the author is describing. It worked really well for me growing up, so I wanted to provide that environment for my son. Well, it was a disaster. After a neuropsych evaluation for him, he's now in an exact opposite, highly structured learning environment. He's not only much happier, but back to progressing appropriately in his education.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Different environments for different people. A kid with ADHD will have serious problems in Montessori style school, even when medicated. Not everyone needs to be a creative Nobel prize winner or otherwise prominent, as much as parents would like that. The real trick is in finding potential ones and not breaking people in the process. Feeling like a reject for failing with assorted psychological issues or having trouble retraining. I'm taking here of the Chinese filter system.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
The statement you quoted is definitely a red flag for me. It sounds like the parent wants the kids to fulfill the parent's dreams, rather than their own dreams. What if one of the kids just wants to work at a surf shop so they can hang out on the beach?

algaeontoast 7y ago

I have similar concerns with people who claim existing education would massively benefit if homework didn’t exist as a teaching tool or means of gauging progress and development.

Broken_Hippo 7y ago
There is research into this - and it seems to work well for elementary school kids, with a minimum of homework for older students. (universities are different). Scandinavian countries do this and always score well. AT least here in Norway, they also do not hold elementary kids back, but work with them appropriately. There is more than one way of gauging development and progress.
mumblemumble 7y ago
There's a kernel of truth behind that one, FWIW. A growing body of evidence indicates that there can be too much of a good thing: Past a certain point, more homework actually hinders learning rather than helping it. By way of analogy, it's not at all unlike how most weightlifting advice says to give your muscles a day of rest in between workout sessions. e.g., I recently watched a talk where a researcher cited a study that found that putting kids in remedial literacy programs, with all their drilling and whatnot, seems to do more harm than good. The (deliberately over-simplified) impression I got was that, if you leave the kids alone instead of bothering them, you'll generally see a markedly bigger improvement through simple regression to the mean. That this gets over-simiplified into a simple "homework bad" in the popular sphere is unfortunate. Sadly, nobody has yet figured out a way to inoculate science so that it can survive on Facebook.
- algaeontoast 7y ago
  I totally agree. I still think homework has utility at least in helping students develop patterns of study and figuring out problems without help from a teacher available at arms length. Too much is definitely a detriment to anyone’s education, but I think this usually happens when classroom instruction is imbalanced with material covered as “homework”. By far I learned the most in a physics class in high school with homework but you could correct a number of problems in class if you completed it at home (not easy). I liked this balance, but there were still students who seemed to lack the discipline to actually just do the homework and not wait for class to see how many solutions they could copy.

james_s_tayler 7y ago

If he's looking for a formula for mass production of Nobel Prize winners he probably hasn't yet discovered the central limit theorem and thought through its implications for his little idea.

de_watcher 7y ago
Even in the 3rd world countries some teachers who know what they're doing have managed to organize schools that rely on competition as the admission process. That works pretty well for not losing potential Nobel Prize winners. Mass production of Nobel Prize winners would be just an act of violence towards the "more average" children.
- james_s_tayler 7y ago
  That example illustrates my point perfectly. Not only are the people normally distributed, the schools are too. That tippy, tippy top will always ever only be a handful. That's not to say we can't raise the bar globally, but realistically we're probably at or close to the ceiling ;f what's possible for mass education.

spamizbad 7y ago

People routinely criticize rigid schooling yet the very people they aspire to emulate are products of such systems. The people who often struggled in such systems (artists, athletes, celebrities) are looked down upon. Even entrepreneurs, by in large, did well in school. For every Steve Jobs there's 10 other founders who were former super students that aggressively tracked into tier-1 schools through hard work and (yes) conformity. No offense but every founder story I read about their "rebellion" is almost silly. It's always like "My parents wanted me to be an investment banker but I said NO!"

Barrin92 7y ago
Yes, if you look at extreme versions like the Soviet system it by and large did what it was supposed to do and produced for all it's other flaws a pretty solid amount of very well trained experts, and a very highly educated general populace. I'd include athletes from your list as well because they also tend to thrive in very rigid environments, artists and celebrities less so. In my experience whenever I hear people talk about unschooling or free thought for their children it isn't about children at all but about the political beliefs of their parents. There's still this kind of 60s hippie or California 'free spirit' individualist attitude that also has a renaissance in 'hacker' circles. It seems to me more about the beliefs of a certain social class than generally about education.
- Fins 7y ago
  That's a rather charitable view of the Soviet education system, probably colored by the biased selection you'd see in the West. By 1990, that "very highly educated general populace" was setting out jars of water in front of their TV screens, so they would get charged with healing powers of ESPers
devoply 7y ago
I don't think schooling has much to do with people's failure or success as much as other factors that are either inherited genetically, financially, or socially. If you want high performers make sure they have the best genetics, come from secure families, have lots of money, and have a wealthy and powerful social network. Outside of that we have lottery winners and for those theorizing about to reproduce them is stupid as they are in fact lottery winners that won because of chance not for any good reasonable reason.

technothrasher 7y ago

> I am not yet convinced that less-structured approach will provide clear benefits for everybody I'll go even further and say I'm convinced that a less-structured approach will clearly not provide benefits for everybody. I had my boy in a Montessori environment, which is more unstructured and focused on the type of self-learning the author is describing. It worked really well for me growing up, so I wanted to provide that environment for my son. Well, it was a disaster. After a neuropsych evaluation for him, he's now in an exact opposite, highly structured learning environment. He's not only much happier, but back to progressing appropriately in his education.

AstralStorm 7y ago
Different environments for different people. A kid with ADHD will have serious problems in Montessori style school, even when medicated. Not everyone needs to be a creative Nobel prize winner or otherwise prominent, as much as parents would like that. The real trick is in finding potential ones and not breaking people in the process. Feeling like a reject for failing with assorted psychological issues or having trouble retraining. I'm taking here of the Chinese filter system.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

The statement you quoted is definitely a red flag for me. It sounds like the parent wants the kids to fulfill the parent's dreams, rather than their own dreams. What if one of the kids just wants to work at a surf shop so they can hang out on the beach?