6 ms·

> RMS must go because he is fat and ugly, and thus makes women uncomfortable (the horror!) That's pretty much the definition of a creep. Women still gushing ov

> RMS must go because he is fat and ugly, and thus makes women uncomfortable (the horror!) That's pretty much the definition of a creep. Women still gushing over Ted Bundy. We forgive pretty people for many sins. Let's not forget that Dolores Umbridges among women. I've had to work with one ... would not let around her a million miles from my dog.

eesmith 7y ago
"fat and ugly" is not the definition of a creep. Stallman's "creep" factor comes in part from his way of making inappropriate sexual advances. Here are some examples of people calling him a creep: "There are many valid criticisms of Richard Stallman: ... he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me). - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 (2011) There are stories on Twitter like the following from 2018, https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/99459683376166092.. https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/99459683376166092.... : > He flirts with anyone who is female, even if they are underage. He is creepy in person, in a way that I cannot adequately describe. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he kept women out of open source and free software, and many of his ideas stayed even after he left. Or https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/09/17/rms-resig.. https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/09/17/rms-resig.... : > rms was in the whisper network as a creep when I was in undergrad late last millennium, and I wasn’t even at MIT.
- foobar_ 7y ago
  If he was not ugly would you consider his behaviour creeping or mild flirtatiousness? There was a whole Justin Bieber creeping his followers, where no one seemed to complain. I'm pretty sure if someone said "No" please stop doing then RMS would stop. Are there cases where he didn't? If so .. I take back my words. Autistic types or Asperger types whatever you want to call it ... take things very literally. They are visual-oriented and big-picture thinkers. This affects both men and women btw. Verbal thinking is not their strong suit. Body language reading is not their strong suit. Sarcasm and mean communication is not their strong suit. They are blunt and straightforward to a fault. Autistic types will be Autistic even in Rome. This almost seems like Gallelio being house arrested because the feminist popes couldn't comprehend him. If the average girl expects psychic powers of body language reading and reading the room before you utter a word ... that's just expecting men to behave like women. It's never going to happen.
  - eesmith 7y ago
    Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard. Do not use 'Autistic types or Asperger types' as a "boys will be boys" type excuse. I'll quote an autistic person, at https://twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/1172674056828661764 https://twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/1172674056828661764 > I'm autistic. I am not good at social cues. I have, in my time, held quite a few shitty, offensive opinions. But when people have pointed out how awful those opinions are to me, I've thought "Oh shit, they're right," apologised, and changed my opinions. Or from another autistic person, at https://twitter.com/mykola/status/1172685579424817152 https://twitter.com/mykola/status/1172685579424817152 : > Being autistic doesn't make you an asshole, certainly not a pedophile. It mostly makes you a little weird. Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have been kicked out long ago because he was being surrounded by enablers and yes-men who didn't provide the feedback he needed for his position. Which, as you likely know, is one of the comments made by the linked-to page: > I was around for most of the 90s, and I can confirm the unfortunate reality that RMS’s behavior was a concern at the time, and that this protection [by Minsky and the AI Lab] was itself part of the problem. He was never held to account; he was himself coddled in his own lower-grade misbehavior and mistreatment of women. He made the place uncomfortable for a lot of people, and especially women. How can you meaningfully write "Justin Bieber creeping his followers" if you think "creeping" means "fat and ugly"? And, "the feminist popes" ... WTF?!
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      > Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? You think people aren't doing it all the time? Gossiping around folks, calling them fat and ugly behind their back? "Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder. (Of course, RMS hasn't exactly made things hard for his bullies. But let's not pretend that this sort of dynamic never happens in such cases.)

eesmith 7y ago

"fat and ugly" is not the definition of a creep. Stallman's "creep" factor comes in part from his way of making inappropriate sexual advances. Here are some examples of people calling him a creep: "There are many valid criticisms of Richard Stallman: ... he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me). - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 (2011) There are stories on Twitter like the following from 2018, https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/99459683376166092.. https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/99459683376166092.... : > He flirts with anyone who is female, even if they are underage. He is creepy in person, in a way that I cannot adequately describe. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he kept women out of open source and free software, and many of his ideas stayed even after he left. Or https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/09/17/rms-resig.. https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/09/17/rms-resig.... : > rms was in the whisper network as a creep when I was in undergrad late last millennium, and I wasn’t even at MIT.

foobar_ 7y ago
If he was not ugly would you consider his behaviour creeping or mild flirtatiousness? There was a whole Justin Bieber creeping his followers, where no one seemed to complain. I'm pretty sure if someone said "No" please stop doing then RMS would stop. Are there cases where he didn't? If so .. I take back my words. Autistic types or Asperger types whatever you want to call it ... take things very literally. They are visual-oriented and big-picture thinkers. This affects both men and women btw. Verbal thinking is not their strong suit. Body language reading is not their strong suit. Sarcasm and mean communication is not their strong suit. They are blunt and straightforward to a fault. Autistic types will be Autistic even in Rome. This almost seems like Gallelio being house arrested because the feminist popes couldn't comprehend him. If the average girl expects psychic powers of body language reading and reading the room before you utter a word ... that's just expecting men to behave like women. It's never going to happen.
- eesmith 7y ago
  Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard. Do not use 'Autistic types or Asperger types' as a "boys will be boys" type excuse. I'll quote an autistic person, at https://twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/1172674056828661764 https://twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/1172674056828661764 > I'm autistic. I am not good at social cues. I have, in my time, held quite a few shitty, offensive opinions. But when people have pointed out how awful those opinions are to me, I've thought "Oh shit, they're right," apologised, and changed my opinions. Or from another autistic person, at https://twitter.com/mykola/status/1172685579424817152 https://twitter.com/mykola/status/1172685579424817152 : > Being autistic doesn't make you an asshole, certainly not a pedophile. It mostly makes you a little weird. Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have been kicked out long ago because he was being surrounded by enablers and yes-men who didn't provide the feedback he needed for his position. Which, as you likely know, is one of the comments made by the linked-to page: > I was around for most of the 90s, and I can confirm the unfortunate reality that RMS’s behavior was a concern at the time, and that this protection [by Minsky and the AI Lab] was itself part of the problem. He was never held to account; he was himself coddled in his own lower-grade misbehavior and mistreatment of women. He made the place uncomfortable for a lot of people, and especially women. How can you meaningfully write "Justin Bieber creeping his followers" if you think "creeping" means "fat and ugly"? And, "the feminist popes" ... WTF?!
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    > Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? You think people aren't doing it all the time? Gossiping around folks, calling them fat and ugly behind their back? "Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder. (Of course, RMS hasn't exactly made things hard for his bullies. But let's not pretend that this sort of dynamic never happens in such cases.)