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I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument, and to dismiss one side of an argument with ad hominem attacks, like you just did, only demonstrates

I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument, and to dismiss one side of an argument with ad hominem attacks, like you just did, only demonstrates how vital it is to hear various sides of a situation.

dirtyid 7y ago
>I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument I don't disagree with this, but it's annoying how much casual western internet users will rely on glorified travel youtubers when there are many veteran China watchers with much more substantial things to say. I.e., Bill Bishop Sinocism (cost $$$) newsletter is widely regarded as one of the best English newsletter on Chinese developments. One would be hard pressed to find a weekly brief this extensive and well thought out for most countries, yet it's available for anyone curious about China. There are also tons of podcasts and articles by established western think tanks and subject matter experts (of various agendas) out there since China has become increasingly topical. Without commenting on quality of these experts which vary greatly, because China is a big place and confusing, even to it's own technocrats, I find it a little unsettling how much these Youtubers inform discussions on Chinese culture to lay audiences. I know it's unreasonable to expect people to become experts, but these "sources" needs to be contextualized and called out for what they are: slice-of-life clickbait expat travel vlogs.
- _iyig 7y ago
  I wouldn’t trust Laowhy86’s commentary on China’s macroeconomic development. Nor would I trust Bill Bishop to tell me what it’s like to raise a young family in a third-tier city in China. Both voices have some utility.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Are facts determined to be accurate by only people with an education or skilled speakers? In the old world a person's word was their bond, not their status in society. As much as you may not like what some people say about China, it doesn't mean it's not true. I have met many people from many other countries, I've travelled, I have relatives in multiple countries right now, and it's all too easy to see something in the news, or think one person is "respectable" because some random person on the internet says so. I will take facts over opinions any day of the week.
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    >I will take facts over opinions any day of the week. Then why place so much faith on 2 YouTubers instead of a seasoned China hand who has been around longer, whose work has been recognized by other China hands, who aggregates information from both western and Chinese sources to provide a relatively impartial view of the situation? My contention isn't an appeal to authority and call to defer to experts, but to point out that there are many experts out there trying to understand and elucidate various parts of China. But lay audiences have consistently decided to fallback on a couple Youtube content creators and appeal to their authority instead. I'd like to see someone nominate 2 non-American youtubers who lived in NYC and Toledo and goes on the occasional road trips as the basis for forming general consensus on US culture and politics. But that's an asinine exercise, yet it's pretty much how a shocking amount of Chinese understanding is derived.
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      Just this past week China blocked American's from leaving their country (exit bans), even though they didn't commit any crimes. That is seriously tyrannical level activity. Can a foreigner get a bank account and buy land in China? How hard is it to get a job as an white westerner in China? What kind of jobs are prevalent for foreigners in China? Look at the videos of people getting hit by cars there and no helps. Why? Because their legal system can end up putting more burden on those that help than those that just leave people to die. Feel free to point me to a video that says this not true, and I can show you a bunch that says it is. China's policies on the Muslim population being put into re-education centers (remind you of a European country's actions in the early 20th century?) there are videos of these places online of it happening right now, not from clickbait vloggers. China destroys churches, persecutes it's own people based on many types of religions. It has a social score system that blocks people from travelling. This doesn't even cover government supported fraud, IP theft, espionage, currency manipulation, etc... The garbage China pulls on the rest of the world is overwhelming. And you think that a couple vloggers are the cause of this bad press???
      - dirtyid 7y ago

dirtyid 7y ago

>I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument I don't disagree with this, but it's annoying how much casual western internet users will rely on glorified travel youtubers when there are many veteran China watchers with much more substantial things to say. I.e., Bill Bishop Sinocism (cost $$$) newsletter is widely regarded as one of the best English newsletter on Chinese developments. One would be hard pressed to find a weekly brief this extensive and well thought out for most countries, yet it's available for anyone curious about China. There are also tons of podcasts and articles by established western think tanks and subject matter experts (of various agendas) out there since China has become increasingly topical. Without commenting on quality of these experts which vary greatly, because China is a big place and confusing, even to it's own technocrats, I find it a little unsettling how much these Youtubers inform discussions on Chinese culture to lay audiences. I know it's unreasonable to expect people to become experts, but these "sources" needs to be contextualized and called out for what they are: slice-of-life clickbait expat travel vlogs.

_iyig 7y ago
I wouldn’t trust Laowhy86’s commentary on China’s macroeconomic development. Nor would I trust Bill Bishop to tell me what it’s like to raise a young family in a third-tier city in China. Both voices have some utility.
RobertRoberts 7y ago
Are facts determined to be accurate by only people with an education or skilled speakers? In the old world a person's word was their bond, not their status in society. As much as you may not like what some people say about China, it doesn't mean it's not true. I have met many people from many other countries, I've travelled, I have relatives in multiple countries right now, and it's all too easy to see something in the news, or think one person is "respectable" because some random person on the internet says so. I will take facts over opinions any day of the week.
- dirtyid 7y ago
  >I will take facts over opinions any day of the week. Then why place so much faith on 2 YouTubers instead of a seasoned China hand who has been around longer, whose work has been recognized by other China hands, who aggregates information from both western and Chinese sources to provide a relatively impartial view of the situation? My contention isn't an appeal to authority and call to defer to experts, but to point out that there are many experts out there trying to understand and elucidate various parts of China. But lay audiences have consistently decided to fallback on a couple Youtube content creators and appeal to their authority instead. I'd like to see someone nominate 2 non-American youtubers who lived in NYC and Toledo and goes on the occasional road trips as the basis for forming general consensus on US culture and politics. But that's an asinine exercise, yet it's pretty much how a shocking amount of Chinese understanding is derived.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    Just this past week China blocked American's from leaving their country (exit bans), even though they didn't commit any crimes. That is seriously tyrannical level activity. Can a foreigner get a bank account and buy land in China? How hard is it to get a job as an white westerner in China? What kind of jobs are prevalent for foreigners in China? Look at the videos of people getting hit by cars there and no helps. Why? Because their legal system can end up putting more burden on those that help than those that just leave people to die. Feel free to point me to a video that says this not true, and I can show you a bunch that says it is. China's policies on the Muslim population being put into re-education centers (remind you of a European country's actions in the early 20th century?) there are videos of these places online of it happening right now, not from clickbait vloggers. China destroys churches, persecutes it's own people based on many types of religions. It has a social score system that blocks people from travelling. This doesn't even cover government supported fraud, IP theft, espionage, currency manipulation, etc... The garbage China pulls on the rest of the world is overwhelming. And you think that a couple vloggers are the cause of this bad press???
    - dirtyid 7y ago