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I watched a few videos of a western man living in China (married to a Chinese woman). Their views on propaganda, information, privacy, leadership, marketing, po

I watched a few videos of a western man living in China (married to a Chinese woman). Their views on propaganda, information, privacy, leadership, marketing, power structures, etc... are all so vastly different from ours that it's almost unbelievable until you hear about it first hand. China's propaganda style is unabashedly similar to "Baghdad Bob". [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf

dirtyid 7y ago
I hope this isn't an endorsement of serpentza or laowhy86, bitter expats with middle school mandarin proficiency flunking out of China are not insightful sources. There are millions of Chinese diaspora who lived in both Chinese and western cultures with much more useful things to say. Here are recent studies on how domestic and foreign Chinese propaganda works. How the Chinese Government Fabricates Social Media Posts for Strategic Distraction, not Engaged Argument https://datasociety.net/events/databite-no-94-jennifer-pan/ https://datasociety.net/events/databite-no-94-jennifer-pan/ Beyond Hybrid War: How China Exploits Social Media to Sway American Opinion https://www.recordedfuture.com/china-social-media-operations/ https://www.recordedfuture.com/china-social-media-operations... Overlapping findings of both reports is that Chinese propaganda focus on overwhelmingly positive, benign messaging i.e. it placates and downplays instead of argue, attack or antagonize. Both also suggest 50c doesn't operate outside of China. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese foreign influence has expanded. I hope it would at least be closer to meme-able Baghdad Bob than whatever low-effort campaign that twitter alleges.
- mistermann 7y ago
  I really enjoy laowhy86's wife's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzAxQ3vGD6Unk1GyxjJ9bmg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzAxQ3vGD6Unk1GyxjJ9bmg The other guy's channels are in fact insightful, but hers is more interesting because she was born and raised there, but also has relatives in HK and an American husband. She is completely unemotionally attached to all the propaganda and nonsense so it's fun to hear her take on these things.
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    I will give these a view later, TY.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument, and to dismiss one side of an argument with ad hominem attacks, like you just did, only demonstrates how vital it is to hear various sides of a situation.
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    >I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument I don't disagree with this, but it's annoying how much casual western internet users will rely on glorified travel youtubers when there are many veteran China watchers with much more substantial things to say. I.e., Bill Bishop Sinocism (cost $$$) newsletter is widely regarded as one of the best English newsletter on Chinese developments. One would be hard pressed to find a weekly brief this extensive and well thought out for most countries, yet it's available for anyone curious about China. There are also tons of podcasts and articles by established western think tanks and subject matter experts (of various agendas) out there since China has become increasingly topical. Without commenting on quality of these experts which vary greatly, because China is a big place and confusing, even to it's own technocrats, I find it a little unsettling how much these Youtubers inform discussions on Chinese culture to lay audiences. I know it's unreasonable to expect people to become experts, but these "sources" needs to be contextualized and called out for what they are: slice-of-life clickbait expat travel vlogs.
    - _iyig 7y ago
      I wouldn’t trust Laowhy86’s commentary on China’s macroeconomic development. Nor would I trust Bill Bishop to tell me what it’s like to raise a young family in a third-tier city in China. Both voices have some utility.
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      Are facts determined to be accurate by only people with an education or skilled speakers? In the old world a person's word was their bond, not their status in society. As much as you may not like what some people say about China, it doesn't mean it's not true. I have met many people from many other countries, I've travelled, I have relatives in multiple countries right now, and it's all too easy to see something in the news, or think one person is "respectable" because some random person on the internet says so. I will take facts over opinions any day of the week.
- _iyig 7y ago
  This strikes me as an unfair characterization of those YouTubers. I’ve followed them for a while and have quite a different impression. Today’s video from Laowhy86 is a good short summation of his time in China, and how his perspective has shifted over time while living there and running a business, marrying a Chinese woman, starting a family, etc: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ed4ryYokLzU https://youtube.com/watch?v=ed4ryYokLzU
  - zhhkthrow 7y ago
    No, I think it's a completely fair assessment. In fact, it probably doesn't even go far enough in terms of criticism. These two expats are notorious in the non-expat world for perpetuating unsubstantiated stereotypes and myths about China for the sake of views. They know there's an audience for it and they've adjusted their content accordingly. Somehow, they've managed to convince a vast number of people that they are experts on the subject matter despite all evidence to the contrary. If you listen to what they say you'll end up with a very distorted view of reality. As the parent commenter said, there are plenty of higher quality Youtubers and vloggers who do a much better job at describing what life is really like for expats living in China. In general, the more reliable and accurate sources are the people who don't make their living from producing clickbait videos.
    - _iyig 7y ago
      You’ve offered a very general critique. In contrast, the video I linked mentions many specific events and incidents which informed the speaker’s impression of China. Give that you’re making vague assertions on a throwaway account, and given that I’ve followed these YouTubers for years and corroborated the kinds of things they’ve said with friends who visit China or are Chinese, I’m not inclined to agree with you. If you believe there are “higher-quality” China YouTubers with a different view, don’t just allude to them, please share links.
      - eznoonze 7y ago
        >If you believe there are “higher-quality” China YouTubers with a different view, don’t just allude to them, please share links. I hope they don't say "Nathan Rich". ;-)
- zhhkthrow 7y ago
  It really disturbs me how these two constantly get touted as authoritative sources on China in western social media. I could not imagine a more misleading introduction into what daily life in China is like than the videos produced by these guys.
- dmix 7y ago
  I could imagine some lesser agencies, like some local small CPC offices have some of their workers going online in their spare time to push narratives. Whether encouraged just an an act of patriotism or something more organized where they look at your results and help manage what to hit. But as you mentioned these could only really work within China. I doubt they have enough local english speakers who could effectively communicate in purely western social media channels. At least for the average party member. Those people obsessed with politics twitter are a super paranoid bunch these days too. They suspect anyone who disagrees with them might be a Russian bot. So there would be a lot of scrutiny of anyone pushing pro-Bejing narratives without both subtly and a careful grasp of the language and culture. They'd need some real professionals to do this right. Otherwise there's still going to be plenty of Chinese people who automatically defend their country. If not simply for propaganda reasons and an impulse to defend your home and people, especially as their media often presents them as the victim of western conspiracies to sideline them and prevent their greatness. They simply want to correct any negative images attributed to the Chinese, which is understandable and easy to dismiss as being a 'bot'.

dirtyid 7y ago

I hope this isn't an endorsement of serpentza or laowhy86, bitter expats with middle school mandarin proficiency flunking out of China are not insightful sources. There are millions of Chinese diaspora who lived in both Chinese and western cultures with much more useful things to say. Here are recent studies on how domestic and foreign Chinese propaganda works. How the Chinese Government Fabricates Social Media Posts for Strategic Distraction, not Engaged Argument https://datasociety.net/events/databite-no-94-jennifer-pan/ https://datasociety.net/events/databite-no-94-jennifer-pan/ Beyond Hybrid War: How China Exploits Social Media to Sway American Opinion https://www.recordedfuture.com/china-social-media-operations/ https://www.recordedfuture.com/china-social-media-operations... Overlapping findings of both reports is that Chinese propaganda focus on overwhelmingly positive, benign messaging i.e. it placates and downplays instead of argue, attack or antagonize. Both also suggest 50c doesn't operate outside of China. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese foreign influence has expanded. I hope it would at least be closer to meme-able Baghdad Bob than whatever low-effort campaign that twitter alleges.

mistermann 7y ago
I really enjoy laowhy86's wife's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzAxQ3vGD6Unk1GyxjJ9bmg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzAxQ3vGD6Unk1GyxjJ9bmg The other guy's channels are in fact insightful, but hers is more interesting because she was born and raised there, but also has relatives in HK and an American husband. She is completely unemotionally attached to all the propaganda and nonsense so it's fun to hear her take on these things.
- dirtyid 7y ago
  I will give these a view later, TY.
RobertRoberts 7y ago
I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument, and to dismiss one side of an argument with ad hominem attacks, like you just did, only demonstrates how vital it is to hear various sides of a situation.
- dirtyid 7y ago
  >I think it's useful to hear multiple sides to an argument I don't disagree with this, but it's annoying how much casual western internet users will rely on glorified travel youtubers when there are many veteran China watchers with much more substantial things to say. I.e., Bill Bishop Sinocism (cost $$$) newsletter is widely regarded as one of the best English newsletter on Chinese developments. One would be hard pressed to find a weekly brief this extensive and well thought out for most countries, yet it's available for anyone curious about China. There are also tons of podcasts and articles by established western think tanks and subject matter experts (of various agendas) out there since China has become increasingly topical. Without commenting on quality of these experts which vary greatly, because China is a big place and confusing, even to it's own technocrats, I find it a little unsettling how much these Youtubers inform discussions on Chinese culture to lay audiences. I know it's unreasonable to expect people to become experts, but these "sources" needs to be contextualized and called out for what they are: slice-of-life clickbait expat travel vlogs.
  - _iyig 7y ago
    I wouldn’t trust Laowhy86’s commentary on China’s macroeconomic development. Nor would I trust Bill Bishop to tell me what it’s like to raise a young family in a third-tier city in China. Both voices have some utility.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    Are facts determined to be accurate by only people with an education or skilled speakers? In the old world a person's word was their bond, not their status in society. As much as you may not like what some people say about China, it doesn't mean it's not true. I have met many people from many other countries, I've travelled, I have relatives in multiple countries right now, and it's all too easy to see something in the news, or think one person is "respectable" because some random person on the internet says so. I will take facts over opinions any day of the week.
_iyig 7y ago
This strikes me as an unfair characterization of those YouTubers. I’ve followed them for a while and have quite a different impression. Today’s video from Laowhy86 is a good short summation of his time in China, and how his perspective has shifted over time while living there and running a business, marrying a Chinese woman, starting a family, etc: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ed4ryYokLzU https://youtube.com/watch?v=ed4ryYokLzU
- zhhkthrow 7y ago
  No, I think it's a completely fair assessment. In fact, it probably doesn't even go far enough in terms of criticism. These two expats are notorious in the non-expat world for perpetuating unsubstantiated stereotypes and myths about China for the sake of views. They know there's an audience for it and they've adjusted their content accordingly. Somehow, they've managed to convince a vast number of people that they are experts on the subject matter despite all evidence to the contrary. If you listen to what they say you'll end up with a very distorted view of reality. As the parent commenter said, there are plenty of higher quality Youtubers and vloggers who do a much better job at describing what life is really like for expats living in China. In general, the more reliable and accurate sources are the people who don't make their living from producing clickbait videos.
  - _iyig 7y ago
    You’ve offered a very general critique. In contrast, the video I linked mentions many specific events and incidents which informed the speaker’s impression of China. Give that you’re making vague assertions on a throwaway account, and given that I’ve followed these YouTubers for years and corroborated the kinds of things they’ve said with friends who visit China or are Chinese, I’m not inclined to agree with you. If you believe there are “higher-quality” China YouTubers with a different view, don’t just allude to them, please share links.
    - eznoonze 7y ago
      >If you believe there are “higher-quality” China YouTubers with a different view, don’t just allude to them, please share links. I hope they don't say "Nathan Rich". ;-)
zhhkthrow 7y ago
It really disturbs me how these two constantly get touted as authoritative sources on China in western social media. I could not imagine a more misleading introduction into what daily life in China is like than the videos produced by these guys.
dmix 7y ago
I could imagine some lesser agencies, like some local small CPC offices have some of their workers going online in their spare time to push narratives. Whether encouraged just an an act of patriotism or something more organized where they look at your results and help manage what to hit. But as you mentioned these could only really work within China. I doubt they have enough local english speakers who could effectively communicate in purely western social media channels. At least for the average party member. Those people obsessed with politics twitter are a super paranoid bunch these days too. They suspect anyone who disagrees with them might be a Russian bot. So there would be a lot of scrutiny of anyone pushing pro-Bejing narratives without both subtly and a careful grasp of the language and culture. They'd need some real professionals to do this right. Otherwise there's still going to be plenty of Chinese people who automatically defend their country. If not simply for propaganda reasons and an impulse to defend your home and people, especially as their media often presents them as the victim of western conspiracies to sideline them and prevent their greatness. They simply want to correct any negative images attributed to the Chinese, which is understandable and easy to dismiss as being a 'bot'.