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You probably wouldn't want to work for somebody who fired people so easily anyway. This is one reason why I find it stupid when people defend companies or are s

You probably wouldn't want to work for somebody who fired people so easily anyway. This is one reason why I find it stupid when people defend companies or are super loyal to their employers: companies don't care about you and especially companies that fire on a whim without concern that they're fucking with somebodies life. Best to work somewhere that treats you like a human instead of as a cog.

filoleg 7y ago
Eh, depends on the reasons for firing people easily. Firing easily for honest errors is moronic, fully agreed, especially if the person is learning from them. My code changes caused more than one sev0 before, but never was I personally blamed for them, as it was always some bigger underlying system issue that wouldn't have allowed me to make those mistakes, if the systems were more robust (and I was a little bit more wise and not pushed "seemingly safe" changes outside of business hours). I learned a lot from those mistakes. Firing easily for a long history of non-improvement and not meshing well with the team (underperforming, causing a lack of cohesion within the team, etc.) is good for the team, but in principle it is similar to the "good king" kind of approach, so it all relies on the "king" having a straight head. P.S. My last paragraph does not imply "culture fit" or any superficial stuff like that as a good reason for firing, I meant more fundamental sort of issues, like refusing to listen to people, never even attempting to improve (given you have some hiccups, just like most of us), etc.
- dkersten 7y ago
  I’m not against firing people if they are a bad fit, are incompetent or are toxic to the work environment. I’m against firing people for small things, not giving a chance to improve, firing on a whim or simply discarding people. Treat people like humans, but that doesn’t mean you can’t fire people who are a negative force on your business.
hinkley 7y ago
I usually find the opposite. Firing someone for cause is interminable or outright impossible, unless they're breaking the law or embarrassing you in front of customers.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  I have only once fired for cause. Every other time, I’ve gone through the process, the PIP, and then terminated them according to their contract, usually with “more generous the legally or contractually required” severance. Let’s me sleep at night and has the nice side effect of keeping the peace with the remaining team.
tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
counterpoint: you are just as free to take the same liberty with your employer. You can drop them like a bad date, and take a job somewhere else. additional counterpoint: part of your job as being a grown up responsible adult is your ability to manage and endure risk and loss, especially the risk of your job disappearing overnight. Outside of circumstances of extreme poverty, or extreme disability, in which our government has safety nets in place (let's save the debate of sufficiency for another time, the fact remains they are in place), losing your job should not "fuck up your life" moreso as be a temporary setback. This is especially true for this industry.
- TylerE 7y ago
  Some of us can’t just lost our health insurance on a whim.
  - pushpop 7y ago
    Thankfully most other developed country’s healthcare system doesn’t penalise individuals quite so significantly as the broken system you Americans keep voting for. I’m not saying the UK or other European counties have the perfect healthcare systems either but at least we aren’t tied to a job we don’t like because losing our company’s health scheme is too scary to consider.
    - mamon 7y ago
      If you're not paying for it with your money, then you have to pay with your time: public healthcare systems, like those in Europe are known for the long wait times for patients requiring surgery, or other costly procedures. Also, traveling to the US for treatment is still a thing, because new, advanced treatments are developed and first implemented in the US, so all that money spent give you something in return.
      - bcrosby95 7y ago
        Unless you're rich and regularly wipe your ass with $xx,xxx bills, you end up spending your time in the US system too: getting your insurance and care provider to agree with what is covered, what isn't, and how much you have to pay. Sometimes it takes almost a year to resolve. BTW, even basic surgeries in the US can have a price tag of close to $100k. I've had to fight off more than one ridiculous bill like this in the last 5 years. If you're talking about medical tourism coming into the US, I can't imagine you're talking about anything but very well off people.
19ylram49 7y ago
To be honest, I understand the bit of backlash that I’ve received here and I think it’s well-deserved since I should’ve worded my statement better. Thank you for your comments. You all are correct re firing someone over mistakes and seemingly trivial matters. I was mostly referring to software engineers who make impactful decisions without good reason and/or without properly assessing the trade-offs. I think it’s fair to say that we all want performant software, but at the same time, if I have a software engineer on my team who can’t back their decisions with some form of data and/or understanding of the trade-offs, unless they’re at the junior level, they’re not the type of software engineer who I want on my team. I said “performance reasons” precisely because, over and over and over again in my career, I’ve watched software engineers commit unreadable messes of code that were clearly premature optimizations and/or optimizations where the performance gains weren’t significant enough to justify the costs of the unreadable and hard-to-maintain code enabling them. I once had a software engineer unexpectedly spend almost a week rewriting a critical part of a Java codebase using the JNI because he thought it’d “make it faster” — and it did — but then all types of new native code-related issues ensued that cost the company, including a major security vulnerability that was just impossible before. On top of that, it turned out that the performance gains that we noticed were mostly significant during the startup period of the JVM, so it really wasn’t worth it. And this was a very brilliant software engineer, but he was consistently making poor decisions like this. To be clear though, he wasn’t fired! I just use that story as a realistic example. (Part of me still thinks that he just wanted to learn/use the JNI and that project seemed like the perfect target. Lol.) But yes, it’s more complex than simply firing individual contributors for sure and I regret wording my statement that way, but I hope you all can understand the real point that I’m making. Edit: I’d like to point out that, in my anecdote above, in hindsight, if anything, I was probably the one who looked incompetent when the suits started asking the expected questions re the sudden set of new issues, because I did my best to shield that software engineer from them (or at least I’d like to think that I did). I know the feeling of messing up at that level and I knew that he was most likely already beating himself up, so I couldn’t just let him take the fall, or worse, throw him under the bus. These tend to be complex situations in real life!
- dkersten 7y ago
  My comment wasn’t meant against you personally (for all I know it was just for emphasis and not serious, and from your comment it seems like it), just against the attitude of firing people for small things, rather than, for example, teaching them to do better.

filoleg 7y ago

Eh, depends on the reasons for firing people easily. Firing easily for honest errors is moronic, fully agreed, especially if the person is learning from them. My code changes caused more than one sev0 before, but never was I personally blamed for them, as it was always some bigger underlying system issue that wouldn't have allowed me to make those mistakes, if the systems were more robust (and I was a little bit more wise and not pushed "seemingly safe" changes outside of business hours). I learned a lot from those mistakes. Firing easily for a long history of non-improvement and not meshing well with the team (underperforming, causing a lack of cohesion within the team, etc.) is good for the team, but in principle it is similar to the "good king" kind of approach, so it all relies on the "king" having a straight head. P.S. My last paragraph does not imply "culture fit" or any superficial stuff like that as a good reason for firing, I meant more fundamental sort of issues, like refusing to listen to people, never even attempting to improve (given you have some hiccups, just like most of us), etc.

dkersten 7y ago
I’m not against firing people if they are a bad fit, are incompetent or are toxic to the work environment. I’m against firing people for small things, not giving a chance to improve, firing on a whim or simply discarding people. Treat people like humans, but that doesn’t mean you can’t fire people who are a negative force on your business.

hinkley 7y ago

I usually find the opposite. Firing someone for cause is interminable or outright impossible, unless they're breaking the law or embarrassing you in front of customers.

Ensorceled 7y ago
I have only once fired for cause. Every other time, I’ve gone through the process, the PIP, and then terminated them according to their contract, usually with “more generous the legally or contractually required” severance. Let’s me sleep at night and has the nice side effect of keeping the peace with the remaining team.

tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago

counterpoint: you are just as free to take the same liberty with your employer. You can drop them like a bad date, and take a job somewhere else. additional counterpoint: part of your job as being a grown up responsible adult is your ability to manage and endure risk and loss, especially the risk of your job disappearing overnight. Outside of circumstances of extreme poverty, or extreme disability, in which our government has safety nets in place (let's save the debate of sufficiency for another time, the fact remains they are in place), losing your job should not "fuck up your life" moreso as be a temporary setback. This is especially true for this industry.

TylerE 7y ago
Some of us can’t just lost our health insurance on a whim.
- pushpop 7y ago
  Thankfully most other developed country’s healthcare system doesn’t penalise individuals quite so significantly as the broken system you Americans keep voting for. I’m not saying the UK or other European counties have the perfect healthcare systems either but at least we aren’t tied to a job we don’t like because losing our company’s health scheme is too scary to consider.
  - mamon 7y ago
    If you're not paying for it with your money, then you have to pay with your time: public healthcare systems, like those in Europe are known for the long wait times for patients requiring surgery, or other costly procedures. Also, traveling to the US for treatment is still a thing, because new, advanced treatments are developed and first implemented in the US, so all that money spent give you something in return.
    - bcrosby95 7y ago
      Unless you're rich and regularly wipe your ass with $xx,xxx bills, you end up spending your time in the US system too: getting your insurance and care provider to agree with what is covered, what isn't, and how much you have to pay. Sometimes it takes almost a year to resolve. BTW, even basic surgeries in the US can have a price tag of close to $100k. I've had to fight off more than one ridiculous bill like this in the last 5 years. If you're talking about medical tourism coming into the US, I can't imagine you're talking about anything but very well off people.

19ylram49 7y ago

To be honest, I understand the bit of backlash that I’ve received here and I think it’s well-deserved since I should’ve worded my statement better. Thank you for your comments. You all are correct re firing someone over mistakes and seemingly trivial matters. I was mostly referring to software engineers who make impactful decisions without good reason and/or without properly assessing the trade-offs. I think it’s fair to say that we all want performant software, but at the same time, if I have a software engineer on my team who can’t back their decisions with some form of data and/or understanding of the trade-offs, unless they’re at the junior level, they’re not the type of software engineer who I want on my team. I said “performance reasons” precisely because, over and over and over again in my career, I’ve watched software engineers commit unreadable messes of code that were clearly premature optimizations and/or optimizations where the performance gains weren’t significant enough to justify the costs of the unreadable and hard-to-maintain code enabling them. I once had a software engineer unexpectedly spend almost a week rewriting a critical part of a Java codebase using the JNI because he thought it’d “make it faster” — and it did — but then all types of new native code-related issues ensued that cost the company, including a major security vulnerability that was just impossible before. On top of that, it turned out that the performance gains that we noticed were mostly significant during the startup period of the JVM, so it really wasn’t worth it. And this was a very brilliant software engineer, but he was consistently making poor decisions like this. To be clear though, he wasn’t fired! I just use that story as a realistic example. (Part of me still thinks that he just wanted to learn/use the JNI and that project seemed like the perfect target. Lol.) But yes, it’s more complex than simply firing individual contributors for sure and I regret wording my statement that way, but I hope you all can understand the real point that I’m making. Edit: I’d like to point out that, in my anecdote above, in hindsight, if anything, I was probably the one who looked incompetent when the suits started asking the expected questions re the sudden set of new issues, because I did my best to shield that software engineer from them (or at least I’d like to think that I did). I know the feeling of messing up at that level and I knew that he was most likely already beating himself up, so I couldn’t just let him take the fall, or worse, throw him under the bus. These tend to be complex situations in real life!

dkersten 7y ago
My comment wasn’t meant against you personally (for all I know it was just for emphasis and not serious, and from your comment it seems like it), just against the attitude of firing people for small things, rather than, for example, teaching them to do better.