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As a hiring manager, I fully agree. All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter.

As a hiring manager, I fully agree. All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. It matter a lot more for juniors who lack any sort of experience. I think it make good sense for young people to get a degree but it makes less sense for seasoned professionals to go back and get one. If you don't have a degree but have experience, don't let the degree requirement stop you from applying.

asdf21 7y ago
>If you don't have a degree but have experience, don't let the degree requirement stop you from applying. Then don't list it as a requirement..?
- Pete-Codes 7y ago
  Indeed.
- wendyshu 7y ago
  Maybe it's some company level HR policy? Certainly drives me up the wall.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. So, you lie about your actual requirements (how hard is it to add the classic “or equivalent experience” qualification?) and expect potential applicants to intuit your hidden meaning?
- wvenable 7y ago
  Don't hate the players, hate the game. With job applications and resumes, hidden meaning is all part of the game. I have some input in the job description but for all kinds of political reasons it's not complete control. All requirements on a job application, from degrees to the technical, are all subject to negotiation. If a job requires JavaScript but you can demonstrate that your other skills more than make up for it (and you can learn) then maybe you'd still be a hire.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  If you don't do that stuff it becomes harder when you want to apply for permanent residence for the guys you want.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    Ah, so it's lying to applicants, but that's just incidental, the real target is lying to government to support immigration fraud. That makes sense. Ethics are another question, but the rationale is clear.
    - scarejunba 7y ago
      Yep, it's just one of the hacks that everyone's on board with. Like how we allow cash-tipped employees to not report tips, we allow this because (while politically unpalatable to change the law) it's better for the country this way. After all, it's the law that fails to recognize that 7 years of experience in different environments may trump having a degree. Policy makers recognize this and allow the situation to exist because they know that you're not going to get residence for the 7-year-no-degree dude, you're going to get it for the 5-year-Masters-from-CMU fellow and it's better to have that guy in than out.
- ben509 7y ago
  Nonsense. If you sell bread at $10, but at the end of the day (when you'd have to throw out unsold inventory) someone offers $6 and you accept, you aren't lying about your stated price. As with any kind of transaction in business, the terms of employment are negotiable. A job posting is simply an initial ask.
- dboreham 7y ago
  Thinking about this more...I seem to remember we used to have wording "CS degree or equivalent" which takes care of the lying aspect. There may be some detail of US labor law that make this a bad idea, not sure (for me having moved from UK to US the laws and customs around hiring are a bit odd and unintuitive...for what I understand are good historical reasons).
Pete-Codes 7y ago
Don't want to pile on but please put "or a great portfolio" as well.
samstokes 7y ago
In case you're not aware, there is evidence [1] that this sort of "required but not really" job posting deters a lot of people, and especially women, from applying even if they would actually meet the (unstated) actual requirements. Making it explicit that you will accept "experience and a good resume" in place of a CS degree might increase the diversity of your applicant pool. [1] https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless...
- wvenable 7y ago
  The whole point of my comment is to encourage people to who don't exactly meet the requirements to apply. I might attempt to make that more explicit next time but it's a slow process.
  - samstokes 7y ago
    And kudos for doing that - but what about candidates who don't read Hacker News (or happened not to see this exact thread)? HN isn't exactly the most welcoming environment for women either.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - joshmanders 7y ago
    Why would I waste my time applying if it specifically states a CS degree is required? If you don't REQUIRE it, state that. It's not encouraging at all. Last time I was applying for work, I sent out 150 applications/resumes, every single one I look at the list of requirements, if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.
    - new_guy 7y ago
WhitneyLand 7y ago
Then why the heck would you say that on your job postings, or not pitch that it be changed to whomever runs HR? As a hiring manager you probably dream of finding more people like your best performers, yet this makes it harder. I agree there is value in a theoretical foundation and would also encourage people to pursue it. However it seems like a separate point from the reality of the market today. Even historically, could you have lost out on a chance to hire Faraday or Ramanujan because they were scared off from applying by boilerplate text?
- wvenable 7y ago
  On the other side, the vast majority of applicants are completely unqualified. Do I want to increase that problem? Not at all. To be fair, I may have lost people with lower confidence in their abilities and a greater fear of failure. That doesn't sound like a great loss. I'd rather encourage people to have confidence and get over their fear than lower the requirements. It's not as if these aren't important requirements; everyone in the department has a CS degree right now. If we put background in a technology, it's because we use that technology. But I'd open to the possibility that an applicant who isn't a perfect match might still be a great candidate. That's all. I suspect most hiring managers feel the same way.
  - quaquaqua1 7y ago
    It sounds like the best way to land a job is to talk directly to you and show you what (a candidate) is capable of, filters and applications be damned!
  - WhitneyLand 7y ago
    Are you not conflating two related but separate hiring issues here? 1) Are there diamonds to be found in the hiring pool of candidates without a CS degree? 2) Whats the most efficient way to hire people in an era where a hiring managers or company HR can receive thousands of resumes for a position? You're refuting my point on the basis of (2) for which I made no claim. To that point, yes obviously any process chosen has to be practical and take into account many requirements. However (2) is an issue whether or not you screen based on CS degree. Moreover, it doesn't necessarily get worse. Any major change to evaluation process should be holistic and take into account number of evaluations, time and money invested to evaluate, and where resources are spent in the process. You could come out the same or better in time and complexity, hence "process optimization". Lots of approaches have been tried and some are anecdotally successful. The biggest obstacle I've seen to improving process is scaling it up to large numbers. What's optimal for organizations of every size and requirement set can't be written in stone. I would just hope that whatever the policy at my organization would have been, still someone would have whispered Faraday's name to me, along with countless other folks who wont be famous but who we've all seen make great contributions.
ThrowawayR2 7y ago
> All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. These days, even job descriptions at a lot of the FAANG and other big tech companies phrase it as "CS degree or equivalent experience required". Hopefully that's a practice that will trickle down to smaller companies over time.
yitchelle 7y ago
My view is if the applicants did a self assessment and meet 75% of the requirements but could cover the gaps through some other way, they should apply.

asdf21 7y ago

>If you don't have a degree but have experience, don't let the degree requirement stop you from applying. Then don't list it as a requirement..?

Pete-Codes 7y ago
Indeed.
wendyshu 7y ago
Maybe it's some company level HR policy? Certainly drives me up the wall.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. So, you lie about your actual requirements (how hard is it to add the classic “or equivalent experience” qualification?) and expect potential applicants to intuit your hidden meaning?

wvenable 7y ago
Don't hate the players, hate the game. With job applications and resumes, hidden meaning is all part of the game. I have some input in the job description but for all kinds of political reasons it's not complete control. All requirements on a job application, from degrees to the technical, are all subject to negotiation. If a job requires JavaScript but you can demonstrate that your other skills more than make up for it (and you can learn) then maybe you'd still be a hire.
scarejunba 7y ago
If you don't do that stuff it becomes harder when you want to apply for permanent residence for the guys you want.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  Ah, so it's lying to applicants, but that's just incidental, the real target is lying to government to support immigration fraud. That makes sense. Ethics are another question, but the rationale is clear.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Yep, it's just one of the hacks that everyone's on board with. Like how we allow cash-tipped employees to not report tips, we allow this because (while politically unpalatable to change the law) it's better for the country this way. After all, it's the law that fails to recognize that 7 years of experience in different environments may trump having a degree. Policy makers recognize this and allow the situation to exist because they know that you're not going to get residence for the 7-year-no-degree dude, you're going to get it for the 5-year-Masters-from-CMU fellow and it's better to have that guy in than out.
ben509 7y ago
Nonsense. If you sell bread at $10, but at the end of the day (when you'd have to throw out unsold inventory) someone offers $6 and you accept, you aren't lying about your stated price. As with any kind of transaction in business, the terms of employment are negotiable. A job posting is simply an initial ask.
dboreham 7y ago
Thinking about this more...I seem to remember we used to have wording "CS degree or equivalent" which takes care of the lying aspect. There may be some detail of US labor law that make this a bad idea, not sure (for me having moved from UK to US the laws and customs around hiring are a bit odd and unintuitive...for what I understand are good historical reasons).

Pete-Codes 7y ago

Don't want to pile on but please put "or a great portfolio" as well.

samstokes 7y ago

In case you're not aware, there is evidence [1] that this sort of "required but not really" job posting deters a lot of people, and especially women, from applying even if they would actually meet the (unstated) actual requirements. Making it explicit that you will accept "experience and a good resume" in place of a CS degree might increase the diversity of your applicant pool. [1] https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless...

wvenable 7y ago
The whole point of my comment is to encourage people to who don't exactly meet the requirements to apply. I might attempt to make that more explicit next time but it's a slow process.
- samstokes 7y ago
  And kudos for doing that - but what about candidates who don't read Hacker News (or happened not to see this exact thread)? HN isn't exactly the most welcoming environment for women either.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- joshmanders 7y ago
  Why would I waste my time applying if it specifically states a CS degree is required? If you don't REQUIRE it, state that. It's not encouraging at all. Last time I was applying for work, I sent out 150 applications/resumes, every single one I look at the list of requirements, if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.
  - new_guy 7y ago

WhitneyLand 7y ago

Then why the heck would you say that on your job postings, or not pitch that it be changed to whomever runs HR? As a hiring manager you probably dream of finding more people like your best performers, yet this makes it harder. I agree there is value in a theoretical foundation and would also encourage people to pursue it. However it seems like a separate point from the reality of the market today. Even historically, could you have lost out on a chance to hire Faraday or Ramanujan because they were scared off from applying by boilerplate text?

wvenable 7y ago
On the other side, the vast majority of applicants are completely unqualified. Do I want to increase that problem? Not at all. To be fair, I may have lost people with lower confidence in their abilities and a greater fear of failure. That doesn't sound like a great loss. I'd rather encourage people to have confidence and get over their fear than lower the requirements. It's not as if these aren't important requirements; everyone in the department has a CS degree right now. If we put background in a technology, it's because we use that technology. But I'd open to the possibility that an applicant who isn't a perfect match might still be a great candidate. That's all. I suspect most hiring managers feel the same way.
- quaquaqua1 7y ago
  It sounds like the best way to land a job is to talk directly to you and show you what (a candidate) is capable of, filters and applications be damned!
- WhitneyLand 7y ago
  Are you not conflating two related but separate hiring issues here? 1) Are there diamonds to be found in the hiring pool of candidates without a CS degree? 2) Whats the most efficient way to hire people in an era where a hiring managers or company HR can receive thousands of resumes for a position? You're refuting my point on the basis of (2) for which I made no claim. To that point, yes obviously any process chosen has to be practical and take into account many requirements. However (2) is an issue whether or not you screen based on CS degree. Moreover, it doesn't necessarily get worse. Any major change to evaluation process should be holistic and take into account number of evaluations, time and money invested to evaluate, and where resources are spent in the process. You could come out the same or better in time and complexity, hence "process optimization". Lots of approaches have been tried and some are anecdotally successful. The biggest obstacle I've seen to improving process is scaling it up to large numbers. What's optimal for organizations of every size and requirement set can't be written in stone. I would just hope that whatever the policy at my organization would have been, still someone would have whispered Faraday's name to me, along with countless other folks who wont be famous but who we've all seen make great contributions.

ThrowawayR2 7y ago

> All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. These days, even job descriptions at a lot of the FAANG and other big tech companies phrase it as "CS degree or equivalent experience required". Hopefully that's a practice that will trickle down to smaller companies over time.

yitchelle 7y ago

My view is if the applicants did a self assessment and meet 75% of the requirements but could cover the gaps through some other way, they should apply.