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[edited to deal with formatting] Genuinely looking for clarification - what does "untestable claim" means to you in this context? If it means that you persona
by throwaway201606 7y ago
[edited to deal with formatting]
Genuinely looking for clarification - what does "untestable claim" means to you in this context?
If it means that you personally can't test it, then yes, it is an "untestable claim" and you are right, the whole thing is effectively a magic black box.
If it means that some other party/authority can't test it, then no, it is the opposite - a "testable claim" - to use the nomenclature put forward.
As a counterpoint to illustrate this, others who can, and do, test include:
1) internally (within the bank itself)
+ risk management: they define acceptable level of risk for login architecture & management
+ enterprise security: they define standards for login architecture among other things based on risk standards
+ infosec - they enforce ent. security standards
+ finance/analytics: test stuff like
"what did we/our customers lose to this type of fraud before/after we implemented this black magic box"
+ internal auditors (IT): assess and report on compliance
2) externally (outside the bank)
+ external auditors (who believe it or not, actually test this stuff)
+ regulators (who can mandate security levels in some jurisdictions - esp true outside the US)
+ pen-testers: banks hire them to ensure that the security posture works
In large bank environments, developers cant simply put out a username/password login architecture and expect to see it deployed to production.
There are a ton of other groups defining what they MUST do. The degree of functional separation in (large) banks is astounding - but it mostly works - because everyone has to toe to requirements defined by other functional groups.
I would argue that another CS-related analogy to this is machine learning. Everyone says they do "ML", most people don't understand it, some do understand it and a few understand it deeply; from an execution perspective, most are doing it ML badly, some doing it OK but there are a few are doing it really well because they understand it really well.
As with ML, for the case of user access management, the fact that *most" are doing it badly does not negate its (very real potential) value if done right.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago> Genuinely looking for clarification - what does "untestable claim" means to you in this context? Simply what I wrote above: The fact that no observation counts as evidence against the claim, every possible observed behaviour can be explained by "it's magic". That includes the behaviour of all the components of the system, including the people. You claim that there are all those people and roles that make sure that crap doesn't go to production. I make the observation that those people and roles and whatnot have decided to implement a 5-char limit on passwords. You respond that "it's magic". No matter how obviously terrible the observable effects of the system are, you will find some rationalization why the black-box magic can exhibit this behaviour while also being perfectly secure. In case you aren't aware, it's a term from epistemology/philosophy of science.
- throwaway201606 7y agoThanks for taking the time to explain that, much appreciated. I was not aware about the epistemology / philosophical implications of the "it's magic" comment. I took the literally reading of your comment. Can you point me at some stuff I can look at to start learning a little more about this - sounds like the kind of interesting stuff I should be reading late into the night rather than working on the sleep I should be getting.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falsifiability https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falsifiability could be starting points? I dunno. And, yeah, "it's magic" is just a placeholder for a random ad-hoc rationalization that you can make up in any such situation that would explain the given observation while some apparently contradicting claim is also true. The problem is when there is (almost?) no observation that would make you go "ah, ok, I guess this claim is bullshit after all", because you can always make up some story as to why it might not be.
- throwaway201606 7y agoThank you, much appreciated.