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carbon taxes are regressive insofar as the poor spend a larger % of their income on fuels than the rich and this is often not negotiable - people can't choose t

carbon taxes are regressive insofar as the poor spend a larger % of their income on fuels than the rich and this is often not negotiable - people can't choose to e.g. not commute half an hour to work when they don't have much disposable income to start with, whereas the rich can generally pay for whatever quantity they want to consume already. so the point of the tax (reduce consumption) unfairly hits the poor.

xvedejas 7y ago
A Carbon tax would also disproportionately help the poor, especially the global poor, so it's not fair to call it regressive without finding a way to put some numbers on both the costs and benefits. Besides, the money gained from a carbon tax isn't lost, it can be reinvested in things like public transit infrastructure.
- huntie 7y ago
  Public transit is not viable in most of the US.
  - gshubert17 7y ago
    > Public transit is not viable in most of the US. Since many US cities had public transit a century ago (and don't today), I wonder if you mean technically viable, economically viable, or politically attainable. I'm guessing the latter, and it's sad.
    - huntie 7y ago
      No I mean it is not viable in any way if you leave the bubble of US cities which account for a small percentage of the total area. Rural US is struggling just to make school buses work. The distances are too great and the people too few to ever support public transit. Any tax on fuel/cars screws rural areas who have no other choice.
      - noobermin 7y ago
        That's fine, you can roll out electrical vehicles in the rural US. The majority of the US population live in cities or suburbs of cities. That is who needs to see development and infrastructure that enables the use of public transportation.
- tomatotomato37 7y ago
  That climate benefit from a carbon tax would only start indirectly helping the poor in decades, while a carbon tax is a direct immediate burden; and you can't just tell them to "take one for the team and wait it out" as that just ends up with them burning down your capital while wearing traffic vests. Using the carbon tax for regular infrastructure purposes is also a bad idea because when it is working it will go down overtime as the public optimizes their carbon use, as it should. Tying it to unrelated societal maintenance creates a pervasive incentive for the government to somehow force the continual use of carbon (probably through questionably legal means) while sustaining the tax in order to get income up. And all this also avoids the core issue in actually deciding if the unpaid externalize of a unit of carbon is $200, $20, or $0.02; if you can't even get people to universally agree if there is a crisis in the first place than how on earth are you going to get them to agree on the monetary value of said crisis.
- Someone 7y ago
  You could even use it for a universal basic income. It wouldn’t be enough to live from, but could nudge people to, for example, spend a weekend in “nice city a 100 km train ride away”, rather than “nice city a 2,000 km airplane flight away”.
  - noobermin 7y ago
    You'd have to have trains for people to ride. The US systematically dismantled trains and made highways in their place.
- noobermin 7y ago
  Let's be honest, everyone huffs and puffs around this but don't have a handle on the facts. Look here[0]. The US is by far the one of the largest GHG producer per capita, and this is not a pinko anti-American bit, it's solely the US, not Europe when taking to account total emissions and emissions per capita. The US is second on the total scale of emissions per year, and not shown here (can't find the link) but first in terms of cumulative positions over the years, but it's a good thing to remember that China expends a lot of their emissions to produce things we consume. A carbon tax would be regressive for the American middle class. On the other hand, it would in fact be beneficial for the global south/poor. That is one of the difficult things about this, because a carbon tax would hit the middle class (note I didn't say working class) in the US which has quite a bit of power globally through their ability to elect the US president, so implementing any sort of carbon tax without giving them some deal will be moot politically. It would hit the working poor in the US pretty hard as well, although a good fraction of them don't own a car[1], so they wouldn't face a tax on the largest source of GHG's in the US. [0] https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2.html https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/sc... [1] About 19% of people who earn less than 25K per year (yes! very poor) don't own a personal vehicle. https://www.bts.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/publications/special_reports_and_issue_briefs/special_report/2007_10_03/pdf/entire.pdf https://www.bts.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/publicati...
davidw 7y ago
It's possible to find ways to give some of the takings back to those who are less well off.

xvedejas 7y ago

A Carbon tax would also disproportionately help the poor, especially the global poor, so it's not fair to call it regressive without finding a way to put some numbers on both the costs and benefits. Besides, the money gained from a carbon tax isn't lost, it can be reinvested in things like public transit infrastructure.

huntie 7y ago
Public transit is not viable in most of the US.
- gshubert17 7y ago
  > Public transit is not viable in most of the US. Since many US cities had public transit a century ago (and don't today), I wonder if you mean technically viable, economically viable, or politically attainable. I'm guessing the latter, and it's sad.
  - huntie 7y ago
    No I mean it is not viable in any way if you leave the bubble of US cities which account for a small percentage of the total area. Rural US is struggling just to make school buses work. The distances are too great and the people too few to ever support public transit. Any tax on fuel/cars screws rural areas who have no other choice.
    - noobermin 7y ago
      That's fine, you can roll out electrical vehicles in the rural US. The majority of the US population live in cities or suburbs of cities. That is who needs to see development and infrastructure that enables the use of public transportation.
tomatotomato37 7y ago
That climate benefit from a carbon tax would only start indirectly helping the poor in decades, while a carbon tax is a direct immediate burden; and you can't just tell them to "take one for the team and wait it out" as that just ends up with them burning down your capital while wearing traffic vests. Using the carbon tax for regular infrastructure purposes is also a bad idea because when it is working it will go down overtime as the public optimizes their carbon use, as it should. Tying it to unrelated societal maintenance creates a pervasive incentive for the government to somehow force the continual use of carbon (probably through questionably legal means) while sustaining the tax in order to get income up. And all this also avoids the core issue in actually deciding if the unpaid externalize of a unit of carbon is $200, $20, or $0.02; if you can't even get people to universally agree if there is a crisis in the first place than how on earth are you going to get them to agree on the monetary value of said crisis.
Someone 7y ago
You could even use it for a universal basic income. It wouldn’t be enough to live from, but could nudge people to, for example, spend a weekend in “nice city a 100 km train ride away”, rather than “nice city a 2,000 km airplane flight away”.
- noobermin 7y ago
  You'd have to have trains for people to ride. The US systematically dismantled trains and made highways in their place.
noobermin 7y ago
Let's be honest, everyone huffs and puffs around this but don't have a handle on the facts. Look here[0]. The US is by far the one of the largest GHG producer per capita, and this is not a pinko anti-American bit, it's solely the US, not Europe when taking to account total emissions and emissions per capita. The US is second on the total scale of emissions per year, and not shown here (can't find the link) but first in terms of cumulative positions over the years, but it's a good thing to remember that China expends a lot of their emissions to produce things we consume. A carbon tax would be regressive for the American middle class. On the other hand, it would in fact be beneficial for the global south/poor. That is one of the difficult things about this, because a carbon tax would hit the middle class (note I didn't say working class) in the US which has quite a bit of power globally through their ability to elect the US president, so implementing any sort of carbon tax without giving them some deal will be moot politically. It would hit the working poor in the US pretty hard as well, although a good fraction of them don't own a car[1], so they wouldn't face a tax on the largest source of GHG's in the US. [0] https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2.html https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/sc... [1] About 19% of people who earn less than 25K per year (yes! very poor) don't own a personal vehicle. https://www.bts.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/publications/special_reports_and_issue_briefs/special_report/2007_10_03/pdf/entire.pdf https://www.bts.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/publicati...

davidw 7y ago

It's possible to find ways to give some of the takings back to those who are less well off.