4 ms·

This only matters for one's first job, if that. Afterwards it's irrelevant. Regardless of what the job description says, it's never mattered in my experience wo

by mnm1 7y ago

This only matters for one's first job, if that. Afterwards it's irrelevant. Regardless of what the job description says, it's never mattered in my experience working at well over a dozen companies in the last twelve years or so.

notus 7y ago
I had the same experience, but I did see quite a few positions in the list that were catered towards juniors or entry level positions so it seems like it would still be really helpful for some people.
ravroid 7y ago
This has been my experience as well. I've also applied for job listings that required a degree and still interviewed (and received offers). I think the degree requirement is often interchangeable with professional experience.
WalterGR 7y ago
How many companies that got your resume didn’t interview you? How many companies did you interview with but not get hired? Of those companies you worked for, what was your total compensation vs. your coworkers who had degrees?
- mnm1 7y ago
  How am I supposed to know those numbers? I'm getting paid towards the top of the median range in what I do, working remotely, often less than 40 hours a week. Hard to get something better than that. The point of my post was that not having a CS degree shouldn't discourage anyone from applying for jobs that claim to need one. I've had well over a hundred interviews in my life in person, over a dozen jobs in the past twelve years, and never has it come up. Not at faang, not at startups, not anywhere.
Pete-Codes 7y ago
Well, you'd be surprised then. Cher Scarlett was turned down for a job this summer with 13 years experience due to not having a CS degree and I have been going through a ton of job ads the last few days so I can tell you lots of non-entry level roles still require a degree. https://twitter.com/codehitchhiker/status/1145776193876176902 https://twitter.com/codehitchhiker/status/114577619387617690...
Impossible 7y ago
It was challenging for my 2nd job, which was really my first job hunt with real interviews, working with recruiters, etc. Still I was rarely filtered purely due to lack of degree, it was more of a problem that I was severely underpaid (learned to try to avoid salary history questions the hard way) and partially because I was attempting to switch into a "new" industry that is hard to get into initially but relatively easy to continue to work in once you've had a job or two.
mixmastamyk 7y ago
At a lot of places, yes. However, try getting even a "no thank you" form letter in response to a job post at a desirable company without a degree. First step in the hiring funnel: no 4-year degree --> /dev/nul. I live nearby Netflix, Space X, Hulu, JPL, etc with twenty years experience in what they do and have never even spoken to a single person at any of them despite applying for years. I'm good at what I do, now I ignore their job postings.
- mnm1 7y ago
  I have had no issues getting interviews with Microsoft (and a position), Google, Netflix, FB (turned down), etc. No CS degree. I doubt it's because of my philosophy degree. Marketing is very important however.
  - non-entity 7y ago
    Hmm, I've always been told getting FAANG interviews as an experienced developer (regardless of a degree) is near to impossible as an experienced dev unless your work history is already FAANG or unicorns
- mattmar96 7y ago
  Complete opposite of my experience. I have no degree either. Interviews with 2 of the 4 you've listed, google as well. Only 2 years of experience.
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    I'm "overqualified" for junior positions unfortunately.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  It's probably more that you have 20 years of experience than the lack of degree that is holding you back with those companies.
- mxuribe 7y ago
  It certainly is possible that the HR folks at the places you've applied just are not reading correctly the skills and experience that you have conveyed. I think i heard some people refer to this as an "HR Fail". While it hurts you (by not getting you that job), it hurts the company far more, because they lost out on talented individual. The alternative could be that they're discriminating you because of your age. Just for the sake of argument, you noted "twenty years experience"...if i assume that you started working on your 20th birthday, that means you are theoretically 40 years old...ripe for being the victim of age discrimination (or at least the beginning of it). And, if true then this sucks royally! I've recently been looking to jump to another gig. I have a degree and almost 20 years of experience. (I'm 45 years old this year, by the way.) In my summary I would always begin with something along the lines of "Technical professional with over 18 years of diversified experience...etc." And, while that has worked ok in the last several years, lately, I get barely any replies. Jobs that in the past i would have easily gotten, are no longer even replying to me. Then, a friend noticed my opening line, and suggested i drop the number of years, and remove 1 or 2 of my early jobs...In essence make it seem like I'm younger...Wow, what a difference. While i still have not gotten any bites (my job search is still early), i now have many more replies...Which confirms that employers don't want to hire "older people". I feel for you. My suggestion: make yourself appear a bit younger on paper, to at least get your foot in the door and interview. Best of luck with your job search!!!!!
codesushi42 7y ago
Maybe. I have worked at both startups and FAANGs. There are developers with CS degrees who are clearly worse than those without. But I could always tell who did not have a CS degree, based on poor understanding of things like running time analysis, good systems design, more complex algorithms etc. The best developers always had at least a CS undergrad. Though there are clearly diminishing returns with going above that, unless you are a researcher. Still, the goal of this site is commendable. There are tons of folks who don't have degrees because they could not afford it.
- mnm1 7y ago
  Many people with CS degrees don't understand those topics and many people without a CS degree do. So I don't buy this.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    Well, that's what I said. But non CS folk never did understand, in my > 10 year experience. Of course there will always be exceptions. John Carmack is one of the greatest programmers of all time, and he never went to college. To be fair, he did excel a lot further under the mentorship of Michael Abrash, who was a researcher in 3d graphics. But for your average Joe schmoe, this is likely not to be the case. Would I not hire someone on the basis of no CS degree? No. Would I be more skeptical? Absolutely. Would I consider them for a senior advisor role? Probably not. Unless it's from another technical field (math, physics). Even then, I don't know, it depends on the role. I've seen a lot of shit code from people who were mathematically brilliant.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    I've found it much more common for a non-CS degree holder to start down a path that boils down to "first, I'll solve the halting problem and then I'll apply that to the problem I'm actually facing" or similar foundational errors. (I say this as someone who has had a 26 year career in software without holding a CS degree.)
    - souprock 7y ago
codingdave 7y ago
> working at well over a dozen companies in the last twelve years or so. That is the one legit reason I've ever heard for a degree -- To know that people are able and willing to stick with a multi-year effort. Moving every year or two when getting rolling with your career is one thing. More than one job per year for over a decade is something else entirely. It doesn't mean I would throw out your resume, but it does mean I would only consider you as a contractor, not a perm employee.
- mnm1 7y ago
  I've been in my current position for almost six years. Also, I do have a degree. It's just not in CS. And yes many jobs were contracting at the beginning or hopping for better pay. Everyone in the valley does it if they can.
  - codingdave 7y ago
    If you do have a degree, how can you know that it has never mattered?
    - mnm1 7y ago
      Because it’s not a CS degree or at all related, which is what we’re discussing here.

by mnm1 7y ago

notus 7y ago

I had the same experience, but I did see quite a few positions in the list that were catered towards juniors or entry level positions so it seems like it would still be really helpful for some people.

ravroid 7y ago

This has been my experience as well. I've also applied for job listings that required a degree and still interviewed (and received offers). I think the degree requirement is often interchangeable with professional experience.

WalterGR 7y ago

How many companies that got your resume didn’t interview you? How many companies did you interview with but not get hired? Of those companies you worked for, what was your total compensation vs. your coworkers who had degrees?

mnm1 7y ago
How am I supposed to know those numbers? I'm getting paid towards the top of the median range in what I do, working remotely, often less than 40 hours a week. Hard to get something better than that. The point of my post was that not having a CS degree shouldn't discourage anyone from applying for jobs that claim to need one. I've had well over a hundred interviews in my life in person, over a dozen jobs in the past twelve years, and never has it come up. Not at faang, not at startups, not anywhere.

Pete-Codes 7y ago

Well, you'd be surprised then. Cher Scarlett was turned down for a job this summer with 13 years experience due to not having a CS degree and I have been going through a ton of job ads the last few days so I can tell you lots of non-entry level roles still require a degree. https://twitter.com/codehitchhiker/status/1145776193876176902 https://twitter.com/codehitchhiker/status/114577619387617690...

Impossible 7y ago

It was challenging for my 2nd job, which was really my first job hunt with real interviews, working with recruiters, etc. Still I was rarely filtered purely due to lack of degree, it was more of a problem that I was severely underpaid (learned to try to avoid salary history questions the hard way) and partially because I was attempting to switch into a "new" industry that is hard to get into initially but relatively easy to continue to work in once you've had a job or two.

mixmastamyk 7y ago

At a lot of places, yes. However, try getting even a "no thank you" form letter in response to a job post at a desirable company without a degree. First step in the hiring funnel: no 4-year degree --> /dev/nul. I live nearby Netflix, Space X, Hulu, JPL, etc with twenty years experience in what they do and have never even spoken to a single person at any of them despite applying for years. I'm good at what I do, now I ignore their job postings.

mnm1 7y ago
I have had no issues getting interviews with Microsoft (and a position), Google, Netflix, FB (turned down), etc. No CS degree. I doubt it's because of my philosophy degree. Marketing is very important however.
- non-entity 7y ago
  Hmm, I've always been told getting FAANG interviews as an experienced developer (regardless of a degree) is near to impossible as an experienced dev unless your work history is already FAANG or unicorns
mattmar96 7y ago
Complete opposite of my experience. I have no degree either. Interviews with 2 of the 4 you've listed, google as well. Only 2 years of experience.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  I'm "overqualified" for junior positions unfortunately.
rootusrootus 7y ago
It's probably more that you have 20 years of experience than the lack of degree that is holding you back with those companies.
mxuribe 7y ago
It certainly is possible that the HR folks at the places you've applied just are not reading correctly the skills and experience that you have conveyed. I think i heard some people refer to this as an "HR Fail". While it hurts you (by not getting you that job), it hurts the company far more, because they lost out on talented individual. The alternative could be that they're discriminating you because of your age. Just for the sake of argument, you noted "twenty years experience"...if i assume that you started working on your 20th birthday, that means you are theoretically 40 years old...ripe for being the victim of age discrimination (or at least the beginning of it). And, if true then this sucks royally! I've recently been looking to jump to another gig. I have a degree and almost 20 years of experience. (I'm 45 years old this year, by the way.) In my summary I would always begin with something along the lines of "Technical professional with over 18 years of diversified experience...etc." And, while that has worked ok in the last several years, lately, I get barely any replies. Jobs that in the past i would have easily gotten, are no longer even replying to me. Then, a friend noticed my opening line, and suggested i drop the number of years, and remove 1 or 2 of my early jobs...In essence make it seem like I'm younger...Wow, what a difference. While i still have not gotten any bites (my job search is still early), i now have many more replies...Which confirms that employers don't want to hire "older people". I feel for you. My suggestion: make yourself appear a bit younger on paper, to at least get your foot in the door and interview. Best of luck with your job search!!!!!

codesushi42 7y ago

Maybe. I have worked at both startups and FAANGs. There are developers with CS degrees who are clearly worse than those without. But I could always tell who did not have a CS degree, based on poor understanding of things like running time analysis, good systems design, more complex algorithms etc. The best developers always had at least a CS undergrad. Though there are clearly diminishing returns with going above that, unless you are a researcher. Still, the goal of this site is commendable. There are tons of folks who don't have degrees because they could not afford it.

mnm1 7y ago
Many people with CS degrees don't understand those topics and many people without a CS degree do. So I don't buy this.
- codesushi42 7y ago
  Well, that's what I said. But non CS folk never did understand, in my > 10 year experience. Of course there will always be exceptions. John Carmack is one of the greatest programmers of all time, and he never went to college. To be fair, he did excel a lot further under the mentorship of Michael Abrash, who was a researcher in 3d graphics. But for your average Joe schmoe, this is likely not to be the case. Would I not hire someone on the basis of no CS degree? No. Would I be more skeptical? Absolutely. Would I consider them for a senior advisor role? Probably not. Unless it's from another technical field (math, physics). Even then, I don't know, it depends on the role. I've seen a lot of shit code from people who were mathematically brilliant.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  I've found it much more common for a non-CS degree holder to start down a path that boils down to "first, I'll solve the halting problem and then I'll apply that to the problem I'm actually facing" or similar foundational errors. (I say this as someone who has had a 26 year career in software without holding a CS degree.)
  - souprock 7y ago

codingdave 7y ago

> working at well over a dozen companies in the last twelve years or so. That is the one legit reason I've ever heard for a degree -- To know that people are able and willing to stick with a multi-year effort. Moving every year or two when getting rolling with your career is one thing. More than one job per year for over a decade is something else entirely. It doesn't mean I would throw out your resume, but it does mean I would only consider you as a contractor, not a perm employee.

mnm1 7y ago
I've been in my current position for almost six years. Also, I do have a degree. It's just not in CS. And yes many jobs were contracting at the beginning or hopping for better pay. Everyone in the valley does it if they can.
- codingdave 7y ago
  If you do have a degree, how can you know that it has never mattered?
  - mnm1 7y ago
    Because it’s not a CS degree or at all related, which is what we’re discussing here.