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I would go futher and say that Agile exists for the particular constraints of UI software development. User stories, Product Owners and Agility break down if yo

I would go futher and say that Agile exists for the particular constraints of UI software development. User stories, Product Owners and Agility break down if you're building core infrastructure

vbtemp 7y ago
Amen! When your product requires true engineering, agile just causes you to keep chasing your tail. Engineering systems requires an engineering process and discipline, and agile is just not up to the rigor.
- 0x445442 7y ago
  Agree with you and parent. "Agile", in it's current form, is managements holy grail pursuit of commoditizing software development. It's the latest management fad to circumvent the law of fast, good and cheap. Quality software is engineered and is expensive to develop.
- InternetOfStuff 7y ago
  Speaking as an aeronautical engineer, I disagree. > Engineering systems requires an engineering process and discipline, and agile is just not up to the rigor. Agile just means closing as many feedback feedback loops as you can as early as you can, and to preserve opportunities to course-correct for as long as you can. All this to keep the destructive effects of surprises (which are sure to catch you) as low as possible. This is good engineering practice, plain and simple.
pflenker 7y ago
I have seen Agile working with pure core infrastructure teams. How does the UI (or lack thereof) change the applicability of agile?
- hugey010 7y ago
  UI specifications are inherently incomplete and often require feedback from stakeholders. You're developing software for consumption by regular humans with feelings and emotions instead of for another computer or developer. Then there's the "implied" specifications which could be anything from current design fads, to legacy support, accessibility, usability, and plain old opinion. Maybe a bad example, but it's basically mandatory to include a manpage for a cli utility, but do you always include drag & drop for a file uploader?
- namdnay 7y ago
  I would say it comes down to two things: 1 - Is it a domain where "user story" means something? 2 - Is it a domain where you can iterate fast? Usually for UI these two conditions are met. From my experience, when talking about big infrastructure projects, they aren't
  - aeorgnoieang 7y ago
    Doesn't infrastructure have users too? Why wouldn't 'user story' mean something to them? All else equal, smaller or shorter feedback loops are better. And often shortening a feedback loop is worth considerable tradeoffs elsewhere. It's certainly the case that being able to iterate fast may not be currently possible, but being able to do so, or even just being able to iterate faster should probably always be a priority (even if not the top one). This all applies even to physical real-world infrastructure. I remember a story about a city somewhere (South America?) where the mayor (?) was able to shorten the feedback loop whereby roads were built or repaired. That seems like a good, even great, thing, even at somewhat considerable cost. What kind of big infrastructure projects were you thinking of specifically?
rswail 7y ago
It depends on your definition of "user". We have an API that is used by external systems, those systems (and developers) are our "users". It's vital to think of API consumers as users, because it avoids the "REST is CRUD" attitude by focussing on the business/system functions that are being expressed, which leads to focussing on the Nouns, not the verbs of the business.

I would go futher and say that Agile exists for the particular constraints of UI software development. User stories, Product Owners and Agility break down if you're building core infrastructure

vbtemp 7y ago

Amen! When your product requires true engineering, agile just causes you to keep chasing your tail. Engineering systems requires an engineering process and discipline, and agile is just not up to the rigor.

0x445442 7y ago
Agree with you and parent. "Agile", in it's current form, is managements holy grail pursuit of commoditizing software development. It's the latest management fad to circumvent the law of fast, good and cheap. Quality software is engineered and is expensive to develop.
InternetOfStuff 7y ago
Speaking as an aeronautical engineer, I disagree. > Engineering systems requires an engineering process and discipline, and agile is just not up to the rigor. Agile just means closing as many feedback feedback loops as you can as early as you can, and to preserve opportunities to course-correct for as long as you can. All this to keep the destructive effects of surprises (which are sure to catch you) as low as possible. This is good engineering practice, plain and simple.

pflenker 7y ago

I have seen Agile working with pure core infrastructure teams. How does the UI (or lack thereof) change the applicability of agile?

hugey010 7y ago
UI specifications are inherently incomplete and often require feedback from stakeholders. You're developing software for consumption by regular humans with feelings and emotions instead of for another computer or developer. Then there's the "implied" specifications which could be anything from current design fads, to legacy support, accessibility, usability, and plain old opinion. Maybe a bad example, but it's basically mandatory to include a manpage for a cli utility, but do you always include drag & drop for a file uploader?
namdnay 7y ago
I would say it comes down to two things: 1 - Is it a domain where "user story" means something? 2 - Is it a domain where you can iterate fast? Usually for UI these two conditions are met. From my experience, when talking about big infrastructure projects, they aren't
- aeorgnoieang 7y ago
  Doesn't infrastructure have users too? Why wouldn't 'user story' mean something to them? All else equal, smaller or shorter feedback loops are better. And often shortening a feedback loop is worth considerable tradeoffs elsewhere. It's certainly the case that being able to iterate fast may not be currently possible, but being able to do so, or even just being able to iterate faster should probably always be a priority (even if not the top one). This all applies even to physical real-world infrastructure. I remember a story about a city somewhere (South America?) where the mayor (?) was able to shorten the feedback loop whereby roads were built or repaired. That seems like a good, even great, thing, even at somewhat considerable cost. What kind of big infrastructure projects were you thinking of specifically?

rswail 7y ago

It depends on your definition of "user". We have an API that is used by external systems, those systems (and developers) are our "users". It's vital to think of API consumers as users, because it avoids the "REST is CRUD" attitude by focussing on the business/system functions that are being expressed, which leads to focussing on the Nouns, not the verbs of the business.