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Nitpicking title: 'Town' vs. 'City', bugs me as a former CO resident. Ft. Collins is huge (~170k people compared to most CO towns which are 400-10k ppl). The t

Nitpicking title: 'Town' vs. 'City', bugs me as a former CO resident. Ft. Collins is huge (~170k people compared to most CO towns which are 400-10k ppl). The title sort of leads you to believe it was a folksy, rural community effort. In reality Intel, AMD, Broadcom and a major State University are located there and that probably helped the effort substantially. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Collins,_Colorado#Major_industries_and_commercial_activity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Collins,_Colorado#Major_i...

smt88 7y ago
I looked into this, and Ft. Collins is a "Home Rule Municipality" under state law, meaning it can name itself either a town or city. It seems to have chosen to be a city, so you're right. Around the world, it seems that there's one consistent criterion for something being a city: it must have self-rule and a certain amount of government structure. Some places (notably not the US) have population requirements, but those tend to be really low (100-1,000 people)[1]. I personally appreciate the headline saying "town" in a colloquial sense, because I don't think of 170,000 as "huge" and it's significant that it's not a large city doing this. For context, Ft. Collins is not in the top 150 most populous US cities, and to even reach the top 50, it would have to more than double in size. 1. https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-a-city-and-a-town-4069700 https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-a-city-and-a-to...
- gadders 7y ago
  >>Around the world, it seems that there's one consistent criterion for something being a city: it must have self-rule and a certain amount of government structure. It used to be in the UK you needed a Church of England Bishop (and a cathedral) but now you have to apply to the Lord Chancellor.
  - NLips 7y ago
    To add flavour in the guise of figures: The largest city in the UK is (Greater) London, population ~9M. This is an outlier. The next largest is Birmingham, population ~1M. The smallest city (by population) is St Davids, population ~1800. This is also an outlier. Most cities are 100k to 1M. However, there are a decent number of towns >100k. The largest town is Reading, population 230k. There possibly isn't a smallest town worth defining - there's no objective divide between villages and towns.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > it seems that there's one consistent criterion for something being a city: it must have self-rule and a certain amount of government structure. What do you mean by self-rule? Singapore is autonomous, but that's definitely not the norm for cities. Almost all of them belong to larger states. No US city has self-rule even at the level below the federal government. Washington, DC comes closest, but it is technically ruled directly by the federal government (in a manner that is not true for cities that belong to states). China has four "province-level" cities, but is generally accepted to have many more than four cities.
  - technothrasher 7y ago
    > What do you mean by self-rule? Typically at the municipality level, self-rule means the ability to make and enforce your own laws, as long as they are not inconsistent with the laws of higher government levels, without needing explicit permission of those higher government levels.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      This is completely unrelated to what "self-rule" means at other levels and in ordinary speech. Why the special definition for cities?
      - seansmccullough 7y ago
        It's a legal term. There are lots of legal terms that have different meanings in the law than in ordinary speech.
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        In the law, what does it mean for a country to enjoy "self-rule"?
        technothrasher 7y ago
        We're not talking about the concept of national sovereignty here, we're talking about a concept derived from self-governed British colonies, which generally ran themselves unless the crown needed to step in for some reason. This is the concept at play at the municipality level that is being discussed. The cities run themselves unless the state has to step in for some reason. Just as the states run themselves unless the federal government needs to step in for some reason. This is as opposed to say, a village, which in New England at least is defined as a population center which is not self-governed, but under the direct control of a larger municipality within which it lies.
- rackad 7y ago
  When internet speed is involved, does it make a difference if it is a city or a town? As far as I see, a service is a server, no matter where you are located.
- technothrasher 7y ago
  Here in New England, the distinction between a city and a town is whether it is governed by a town meeting style government with selectmen, or by a city council style government with or without a mayor. In MA at least, you cannot choose to be a city unless you have at least 12K in population.
  - mroche 7y ago
    The board of selectmen were always interesting in my town (at least to me, I didn’t really understand it as a child). Not sure if we are over the 12K minimum, but I doubt anyone would call us a city even if we were. Municipal ISP would have been cool, but I think power would be a better option first. A neighboring town (either Mansfield or Medfield) as municipal power and compares to us during storms they do great (as in fast response times and efforts to not lose power).
    - technothrasher 7y ago
      My father served on the board of selectmen for my town when I was growing up. He was so miserable during that time, it taught me to never, ever go into politics.
      - mroche 7y ago
        I can imagine. By ‘interesting’ I should have clarified: it’s like watching a bunch of kids argue over who can take care of a pet rock better, but in reality the rock is a cat being neglected in the corner. Not all selectmen are terrible, but it only takes a few bad eggs to make it hell for everyone. I should also note that analogies are not my forte.
- crumpets 7y ago
  >I personally appreciate the headline saying "town" in a colloquial sense But that's the problem. It's not a "town" in a colloquial sense for anyone who grew up outside of major metro areas. If 170k is not enough, then there are no cities in Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, nor South Dakota.
  - mrosett 7y ago
    Well, I'm inclined to agree with that claim...
    - kortilla 7y ago
      And you would be wrong. There are many cities in those states that contain all of the components of larger cities (universities, self-governance, public transit, international airports, etc). The difference between 100k and 1 million residents is much less significant than the difference between 10k and 100k.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  > I don't think of 170,000 as "huge" Interesting, that's pretty big from my perspective. I grew up in a suburb of a big city (~750k, ~4M metro), and my city was ~60k people. I currently live in a city of <50k. I never considered either to be huge, but definitely not small. The biggest city in my county is a little over 100k people, the "big city" in my area is just under 200k, with the metro area being just over 1M. My 30k city has its own fiber network, and several neighboring cities have banded together on a fiber project. When I see "town", I think of something smaller than my own city, not something nearly as big as the "big city" in my area.
situational87 7y ago
Yeah but everyone in Ft. Collins is a cow herder so this town label is still appropriate. (sorry this is a bad intra-Colorado rivalry joke, please ignore)
- Cshelton 7y ago
  Sko Buffs! But also Fort Collins has a lot of beer production, so they are ok in my book. It’s still not Boulder though...
  - fred_is_fred 7y ago
    Careful not to spill your quinoa smoothie on your bespoke Macbook when you type your comments.
    - situational87 7y ago
      You're gonna make fun of people for being healthy and rich? I think you just self-owned.
randomcarbloke 7y ago
anything less than 6-7,000 people is a village.
- tylermac1 7y ago
  The 8th largest city in my state has a population of 16,000.
  - panzagl 7y ago
    The western US is funny- I could name maybe 5-6 'cities' in Montana, but the largest barely has a large enough population to fill a football stadium.
    - cafard 7y ago
      When last I was in Lincoln, Nebraska, they told me that on football Saturdays, the stadium was the second-most populous location in the state, after Omaha. "Last" was over thirty years ago, so this may have changed.
    - takk309 7y ago
      Living in a giant state with just over a million people definitely changes one's perspective on city versus town.
moojd 7y ago
For contrast: My rural hometown of around 15,000 (not tiny but still 10 times smaller than Ft. Collins) built its own fiber network in the mid-90s. It still runs today and has expanded to include many of our smaller neighboring communities of 400-10k people. Now that the city has grown to about 20k we have larger ISPs moving in. They lease the city's infrastructure so we have a municipal fiber network with multiple competing private options. You get fancier hardware and more channels with the private companies but I find the local ISP more reliable and I have one bill for internet, power, gas, water, and waste. Way better setup than when I was in I was in ATL and forced to use Comcast. Plus there aren't any data caps.
- driverdan 7y ago
  What town is this?
randomdata 7y ago
Where I’m from in a “folksy” rural area you can get gigabit internet service to your farm for $75 a month. But it is not a particularly interesting story.
barkerja 7y ago
My little village (around ~1200 people I believe) in Central New York is currently exploring its own municipality owned internet. They sent out surveys to all the residents a few months back to see if there's a large enough interest.
munk-a 7y ago
Honestly I'm glad they didn't go with "Colorado City", since Colorado City is a town... in Arizona.
- mrosett 7y ago
  And quite the place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_City,_Arizona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_City,_Arizona
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

smt88 7y ago

I looked into this, and Ft. Collins is a "Home Rule Municipality" under state law, meaning it can name itself either a town or city. It seems to have chosen to be a city, so you're right. Around the world, it seems that there's one consistent criterion for something being a city: it must have self-rule and a certain amount of government structure. Some places (notably not the US) have population requirements, but those tend to be really low (100-1,000 people)[1]. I personally appreciate the headline saying "town" in a colloquial sense, because I don't think of 170,000 as "huge" and it's significant that it's not a large city doing this. For context, Ft. Collins is not in the top 150 most populous US cities, and to even reach the top 50, it would have to more than double in size. 1. https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-a-city-and-a-town-4069700 https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-a-city-and-a-to...

gadders 7y ago
>>Around the world, it seems that there's one consistent criterion for something being a city: it must have self-rule and a certain amount of government structure. It used to be in the UK you needed a Church of England Bishop (and a cathedral) but now you have to apply to the Lord Chancellor.
- NLips 7y ago
  To add flavour in the guise of figures: The largest city in the UK is (Greater) London, population ~9M. This is an outlier. The next largest is Birmingham, population ~1M. The smallest city (by population) is St Davids, population ~1800. This is also an outlier. Most cities are 100k to 1M. However, there are a decent number of towns >100k. The largest town is Reading, population 230k. There possibly isn't a smallest town worth defining - there's no objective divide between villages and towns.
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> it seems that there's one consistent criterion for something being a city: it must have self-rule and a certain amount of government structure. What do you mean by self-rule? Singapore is autonomous, but that's definitely not the norm for cities. Almost all of them belong to larger states. No US city has self-rule even at the level below the federal government. Washington, DC comes closest, but it is technically ruled directly by the federal government (in a manner that is not true for cities that belong to states). China has four "province-level" cities, but is generally accepted to have many more than four cities.
- technothrasher 7y ago
  > What do you mean by self-rule? Typically at the municipality level, self-rule means the ability to make and enforce your own laws, as long as they are not inconsistent with the laws of higher government levels, without needing explicit permission of those higher government levels.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    This is completely unrelated to what "self-rule" means at other levels and in ordinary speech. Why the special definition for cities?
    - seansmccullough 7y ago
      It's a legal term. There are lots of legal terms that have different meanings in the law than in ordinary speech.
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        In the law, what does it mean for a country to enjoy "self-rule"?
        technothrasher 7y ago
        We're not talking about the concept of national sovereignty here, we're talking about a concept derived from self-governed British colonies, which generally ran themselves unless the crown needed to step in for some reason. This is the concept at play at the municipality level that is being discussed. The cities run themselves unless the state has to step in for some reason. Just as the states run themselves unless the federal government needs to step in for some reason. This is as opposed to say, a village, which in New England at least is defined as a population center which is not self-governed, but under the direct control of a larger municipality within which it lies.
rackad 7y ago
When internet speed is involved, does it make a difference if it is a city or a town? As far as I see, a service is a server, no matter where you are located.
technothrasher 7y ago
Here in New England, the distinction between a city and a town is whether it is governed by a town meeting style government with selectmen, or by a city council style government with or without a mayor. In MA at least, you cannot choose to be a city unless you have at least 12K in population.
- mroche 7y ago
  The board of selectmen were always interesting in my town (at least to me, I didn’t really understand it as a child). Not sure if we are over the 12K minimum, but I doubt anyone would call us a city even if we were. Municipal ISP would have been cool, but I think power would be a better option first. A neighboring town (either Mansfield or Medfield) as municipal power and compares to us during storms they do great (as in fast response times and efforts to not lose power).
  - technothrasher 7y ago
    My father served on the board of selectmen for my town when I was growing up. He was so miserable during that time, it taught me to never, ever go into politics.
    - mroche 7y ago
      I can imagine. By ‘interesting’ I should have clarified: it’s like watching a bunch of kids argue over who can take care of a pet rock better, but in reality the rock is a cat being neglected in the corner. Not all selectmen are terrible, but it only takes a few bad eggs to make it hell for everyone. I should also note that analogies are not my forte.
crumpets 7y ago
>I personally appreciate the headline saying "town" in a colloquial sense But that's the problem. It's not a "town" in a colloquial sense for anyone who grew up outside of major metro areas. If 170k is not enough, then there are no cities in Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, nor South Dakota.
- mrosett 7y ago
  Well, I'm inclined to agree with that claim...
  - kortilla 7y ago
    And you would be wrong. There are many cities in those states that contain all of the components of larger cities (universities, self-governance, public transit, international airports, etc). The difference between 100k and 1 million residents is much less significant than the difference between 10k and 100k.
beatgammit 7y ago
> I don't think of 170,000 as "huge" Interesting, that's pretty big from my perspective. I grew up in a suburb of a big city (~750k, ~4M metro), and my city was ~60k people. I currently live in a city of <50k. I never considered either to be huge, but definitely not small. The biggest city in my county is a little over 100k people, the "big city" in my area is just under 200k, with the metro area being just over 1M. My 30k city has its own fiber network, and several neighboring cities have banded together on a fiber project. When I see "town", I think of something smaller than my own city, not something nearly as big as the "big city" in my area.

situational87 7y ago

Yeah but everyone in Ft. Collins is a cow herder so this town label is still appropriate. (sorry this is a bad intra-Colorado rivalry joke, please ignore)

Cshelton 7y ago
Sko Buffs! But also Fort Collins has a lot of beer production, so they are ok in my book. It’s still not Boulder though...
- fred_is_fred 7y ago
  Careful not to spill your quinoa smoothie on your bespoke Macbook when you type your comments.
  - situational87 7y ago
    You're gonna make fun of people for being healthy and rich? I think you just self-owned.

randomcarbloke 7y ago

anything less than 6-7,000 people is a village.

tylermac1 7y ago
The 8th largest city in my state has a population of 16,000.
- panzagl 7y ago
  The western US is funny- I could name maybe 5-6 'cities' in Montana, but the largest barely has a large enough population to fill a football stadium.
  - cafard 7y ago
    When last I was in Lincoln, Nebraska, they told me that on football Saturdays, the stadium was the second-most populous location in the state, after Omaha. "Last" was over thirty years ago, so this may have changed.
  - takk309 7y ago
    Living in a giant state with just over a million people definitely changes one's perspective on city versus town.

moojd 7y ago

For contrast: My rural hometown of around 15,000 (not tiny but still 10 times smaller than Ft. Collins) built its own fiber network in the mid-90s. It still runs today and has expanded to include many of our smaller neighboring communities of 400-10k people. Now that the city has grown to about 20k we have larger ISPs moving in. They lease the city's infrastructure so we have a municipal fiber network with multiple competing private options. You get fancier hardware and more channels with the private companies but I find the local ISP more reliable and I have one bill for internet, power, gas, water, and waste. Way better setup than when I was in I was in ATL and forced to use Comcast. Plus there aren't any data caps.

driverdan 7y ago
What town is this?

randomdata 7y ago

Where I’m from in a “folksy” rural area you can get gigabit internet service to your farm for $75 a month. But it is not a particularly interesting story.

barkerja 7y ago

My little village (around ~1200 people I believe) in Central New York is currently exploring its own municipality owned internet. They sent out surveys to all the residents a few months back to see if there's a large enough interest.

munk-a 7y ago

Honestly I'm glad they didn't go with "Colorado City", since Colorado City is a town... in Arizona.

mrosett 7y ago
And quite the place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_City,_Arizona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_City,_Arizona
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]