5 ms·

I'm not the person you were replying to, but I'm also a writer, and I think you are underestimating the command of language required to write fiction. I'm flue

by agota 7y ago

I'm not the person you were replying to, but I'm also a writer, and I think you are underestimating the command of language required to write fiction. I'm fluent in English, I write in English for a living, but I doubt I'd be able to write decent fiction in English. "Just write novels in your second language, bro" comes off as extremely ignorant.

fastball 7y ago
Lolita is considered one of the greatest books of all time. It was written by a non-native speaker in English. Thinking a non-native speaker can't write great English novels is the ignorant view, in my opinion. Is it difficult? Of course it is. But all writing is difficult.
- neffy 7y ago
  Not by anybody who has actually read it.
  - fastball 7y ago
    Downvotes on HN for saying people think Lolita is great? Interesting.
  - cafard 7y ago
    I beg to differ. I don't know that I'd rate it as one of the greatest works of all time--in the European/American world, there's what, three thousand years of recorded literature? However, I would have no trouble finding widely read folks who think very highly of it.
  - dbuder 7y ago
    I don't know where you get that impression, it is an undeniable work of genius.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- _Wintermute 7y ago
  Nabokov was raised bi(tri?)lingual, comparing him to someone who learned English as a second language isn't exactly fair.
  - avn2109 7y ago
    Also, Nabokov was an utter linguistic genius and extreme outlier all-around-literary-intellectual, so comparing to him is mostly unfair, period.
- vkazanov 7y ago
  Vladimir Nabokov was a native speaker in both languages. he grew up with English-speaking nurses, governesses, etc aroun him... He also spoke French fluently, as all Russian nobility did. Additional fact: he learned to read in English first, Russian next. Not to mention his years in Cambridge, UK. TL;DR he probably spoke English better than most native speakers do nowadays.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    Thanks, TIL. > TL;DR he probably spoke English better than most native speakers do nowadays. True, especially "internet English" which is abysmal.
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    Nabokov was also supposed to have experienced synesthesia*. 2 thoughts: 1. Nabokov’s synesthesia was largely why..IMO..made his writing captivating. The first sentence of Lolita makes you gasp. It ‘hits’ you where you didn’t expect it and you like it. The subject matter of Lolita was likely secondary to the synesthetic appeal of the language of Nabokov. It’s is a linguistic neural dissonance. It reminds of Szechuan peppers in Hunan/Szechuan cuisine. The addition of which gives you a numbing tingling sensation to the inside of your mouth. It is called ‘mala’ in mandarin. It is also said to cause neurological dissonance especially when used with spicy foods. Szechuan peppers themselves are not peppers but from the citrus family. They are often used with hot peppers..often mildly hot peppers but the numbing/tingling sensation makes the eater think that they are eating something super spicy ..far more spicier than it really is..and the body reacts with watering eyes and increased heartbeat and that endorphin rush associated with eating capsaicin. It’s the same thing reading Nabokov. You expect to read a story and you are entirely bowled over by the sensory aspect of his language. Even though Lolita is his most popular work, he has written so much more. Pale Fire, Speak, Memory, Real life of Sebastian Knight.. 2. My second thought is that authors who are non native English speakers/writers have remarkably rich vocabulary that is super descriptive. English is not a voluptuous language. Others that come to mind are Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Neruda, Borges, Italo Cavalo, Umberto Eco, Marukami, Junichiro Tanizaki and the many Asian languages to English translations. Something lyrical in these languages is beautiful transmitted into English..a quality that English itself doesn’t seem to possess. On a slightly different note: older languages like Sanskrit and the even earlier like epic of Gilgamesh relied on meter. As our speaking faculties expanded to accommodate more experiences and senses..and as we became more musical, language evolved too. It is the most beautiful evolution of the human state and we barely pay attention to language’s evolution. I also think Germans shouldn’t be translating anything to English or anything from any other language to English. I don’t know German but I can often tell if any translation has had a translator remotely connected to the language. The language doesn’t lend itself to fluidity and nimbleness. Altho I have read some translations of Carl Jung’s Red Book from High German to English that intrigued and somewhat appealed to me. I don’t know if it was the translator or Jung’s language/words itself. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia + http://nabokovsecrethistory.com/news/nabokovs-synesthesia-and-memory/ http://nabokovsecrethistory.com/news/nabokovs-synesthesia-an... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_synesthesia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_synesthe... : List of people with synesthesia
- billfruit 7y ago
  Same with Conrad too, English was his third language, after Polish and French, yet he wrote his widely praised oevre almost entirely in English.
raverbashing 7y ago
> "Just write novels in your second language, bro" comes off as extremely ignorant. Just as a note, it is not common but it does happen. Not to mention other forms of cultural production like songs (where adherence to grammatical norms is not as important as other forms of cultural manifestation). Which one is the "least correct" one, "Hotline Bling" or "I Want it That Way"? One was written by a native speaker, the other isn't.

by agota 7y ago

fastball 7y ago

Lolita is considered one of the greatest books of all time. It was written by a non-native speaker in English. Thinking a non-native speaker can't write great English novels is the ignorant view, in my opinion. Is it difficult? Of course it is. But all writing is difficult.

neffy 7y ago
Not by anybody who has actually read it.
- fastball 7y ago
  Downvotes on HN for saying people think Lolita is great? Interesting.
- cafard 7y ago
  I beg to differ. I don't know that I'd rate it as one of the greatest works of all time--in the European/American world, there's what, three thousand years of recorded literature? However, I would have no trouble finding widely read folks who think very highly of it.
- dbuder 7y ago
  I don't know where you get that impression, it is an undeniable work of genius.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
_Wintermute 7y ago
Nabokov was raised bi(tri?)lingual, comparing him to someone who learned English as a second language isn't exactly fair.
- avn2109 7y ago
  Also, Nabokov was an utter linguistic genius and extreme outlier all-around-literary-intellectual, so comparing to him is mostly unfair, period.
vkazanov 7y ago
Vladimir Nabokov was a native speaker in both languages. he grew up with English-speaking nurses, governesses, etc aroun him... He also spoke French fluently, as all Russian nobility did. Additional fact: he learned to read in English first, Russian next. Not to mention his years in Cambridge, UK. TL;DR he probably spoke English better than most native speakers do nowadays.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Thanks, TIL. > TL;DR he probably spoke English better than most native speakers do nowadays. True, especially "internet English" which is abysmal.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  Nabokov was also supposed to have experienced synesthesia*. 2 thoughts: 1. Nabokov’s synesthesia was largely why..IMO..made his writing captivating. The first sentence of Lolita makes you gasp. It ‘hits’ you where you didn’t expect it and you like it. The subject matter of Lolita was likely secondary to the synesthetic appeal of the language of Nabokov. It’s is a linguistic neural dissonance. It reminds of Szechuan peppers in Hunan/Szechuan cuisine. The addition of which gives you a numbing tingling sensation to the inside of your mouth. It is called ‘mala’ in mandarin. It is also said to cause neurological dissonance especially when used with spicy foods. Szechuan peppers themselves are not peppers but from the citrus family. They are often used with hot peppers..often mildly hot peppers but the numbing/tingling sensation makes the eater think that they are eating something super spicy ..far more spicier than it really is..and the body reacts with watering eyes and increased heartbeat and that endorphin rush associated with eating capsaicin. It’s the same thing reading Nabokov. You expect to read a story and you are entirely bowled over by the sensory aspect of his language. Even though Lolita is his most popular work, he has written so much more. Pale Fire, Speak, Memory, Real life of Sebastian Knight.. 2. My second thought is that authors who are non native English speakers/writers have remarkably rich vocabulary that is super descriptive. English is not a voluptuous language. Others that come to mind are Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Neruda, Borges, Italo Cavalo, Umberto Eco, Marukami, Junichiro Tanizaki and the many Asian languages to English translations. Something lyrical in these languages is beautiful transmitted into English..a quality that English itself doesn’t seem to possess. On a slightly different note: older languages like Sanskrit and the even earlier like epic of Gilgamesh relied on meter. As our speaking faculties expanded to accommodate more experiences and senses..and as we became more musical, language evolved too. It is the most beautiful evolution of the human state and we barely pay attention to language’s evolution. I also think Germans shouldn’t be translating anything to English or anything from any other language to English. I don’t know German but I can often tell if any translation has had a translator remotely connected to the language. The language doesn’t lend itself to fluidity and nimbleness. Altho I have read some translations of Carl Jung’s Red Book from High German to English that intrigued and somewhat appealed to me. I don’t know if it was the translator or Jung’s language/words itself. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia + http://nabokovsecrethistory.com/news/nabokovs-synesthesia-and-memory/ http://nabokovsecrethistory.com/news/nabokovs-synesthesia-an... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_synesthesia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_synesthe... : List of people with synesthesia
billfruit 7y ago
Same with Conrad too, English was his third language, after Polish and French, yet he wrote his widely praised oevre almost entirely in English.

raverbashing 7y ago

> "Just write novels in your second language, bro" comes off as extremely ignorant. Just as a note, it is not common but it does happen. Not to mention other forms of cultural production like songs (where adherence to grammatical norms is not as important as other forms of cultural manifestation). Which one is the "least correct" one, "Hotline Bling" or "I Want it That Way"? One was written by a native speaker, the other isn't.