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I love the idea but it seems like like a long shot to get the network effect working in your favor instead of against you. You mention a bottoms up approach and

I love the idea but it seems like like a long shot to get the network effect working in your favor instead of against you. You mention a bottoms up approach and what happened in Catalonia but that is such a tiny percentage of the population facing problems that most people will hopefully never face. How does this go mainstream? Why should the average person care about a more secure solution to DNS? Most people happily ship their data off to Google and Facebook and are blissfully ignorant about the potential consequences. It seems like you would have to make people care more about internet privacy before something like this would work on a large scale. IMO, it faces the problem that most crypto projects are running into; it might be good solution, but the problem doesn’t effect the average person enough for it gain mainstream traction.

troquerre 7y ago
There are many instances where an intolerant minority is able to get a neutral majority to adopt their will. Nassim Taleb describes this as the minority rule. It’s the same reason why all lemonade is kosher* A small minority of people NEED censorship-resistant and seizure-resistant DNS, and the bet is that they can get the majority to adopt Handshake. The key is that Handshake is backwards compatible with existing DNS, so for the majority that don’t care, they can switch to Handshake without problem. I’d also emphasize that in addition to the minority that absolutely needs it, there are millions of prosumers who care about privacy and security as well, as evident by how quickly Cloudflare’s 1.1.1.1 has grown. On the point of Cloudflare, 1.1.1.1 often gets a lot of usage in countries with strict DNS censorship. When Turkey took down twitter.com, people literally spray painted 1.1.1.1 on walls since you could use it to get around the censorship. OpenDNS got a lot of growth outside the US this way as well. In both the case of Cloudflare and OpenDNS, they can’t promote the censorship-resistant use case as strongly because they have a single IP. Handshake doesn’t face the same restriction. Eventually, the goal is to get browsers to adopt Handshake in order to reach the late majority who don’t care either way, but that would only happen after significant bottoms up adoption. At a certain point it’d make sense for Opera and Brave to integrate Handshake, and then Firefox, Edge, and all the other browsers as well. *https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- funfunfunction 7y ago
  It’s true that a single static IP address is easy to block, but what is stopping an oppressive regime from building tech specifically designed to block Handshake? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Handshake still functions over IP and as such a government could potentially block all IPs associated with Handshake via similar mechanisms that are used to block a single IP. If there exists some kind of public list of all Handshake resolvers, as, from my understanding, there would have to be, they could very easily continue censoring content deemed inappropriate. I don’t see anything built into the core of this that will solve this problem. Oppressive regimes will adapt. And DNS as it stands is fairly seizure resistant as long as you use secure passwords and the customer services folks don’t get tricked into resetting your account or something. The vision is grand. I’m excited to see where this project goes and will definitely be following along. Best of luck.
  - throau45556778 7y ago
    >Handshake still functions over IP and as such a government could potentially block all IPs associated with Handshake via similar mechanisms that are used to block a single IP Blockchains are decentralized. Sometimes a fixed set of bootstrapping nodes is used to improve user experience (rapid connection to the network when opening the app), but if these nodes are blocked it is quite easy to rotate them (and even to make it less easy for an attacker to know the identities of all nodes). A legitimate website that cannot be blocked because it has an unrelated focus can even be used as a shield (some sort of partnership). >And DNS as it stands is fairly seizure resistant as long as you use secure passwords and the customer services folks don’t get tricked into resetting your account or something. You do not know what you are talking about I'm afraid. The internet is censored like hell, and I am not talking about living in China or other authoritative regimes. Activists not agreeing with what you are saying try to censor you like hell these days and registrars bow under the pressure. This is not about right-wing hate speech. Just try to start a political platform about a sensitive topic and see how it goes. Do you want to advocate to allow the marriage of young children and start a democratic discussion about it? Or do you want to host a community of consenting adults believing in a family arrangements in which the man is the lead of the woman and providing practical life advice including how to spank your wife? You'll spend your life wondering when your registrar will take your website down. And these topics really are just examples. I have seen countless websites disappear (and forums where activists organize themselves to pressure registrars). If you confront them and put them in a corner, they admit that they are censoring just because they do not agree, but they invoke the notion of "higher social interest", and "the ends justify the means", and in essence "this is a holy war, they will be collateral damages but we need to prevent irresponsible speech" (which really is the new way to justify intolerance - a very sickening rhetoric). For example with the example of wife spanking among consenting adults (there is not even a knowledge asymmetry between the woman and the man in these communities, the methods and psychology behind this arrangement is discussed openly, and they actually choose this lifestyle because they want the psychological outcomes - they want to program themselves at a subconscious level so to speak. This is totally consensual), I know that many people here think that only a vulnerable and exploited woman could agree with that. And I could point you to women advocating for this, and even animating YouTube channels about it - that may be taken down anytime. And this was only to provide a graphic example, but this not limited to this category of topic. My point is that every majority begins with a minority, and like-minded people, not hating anyone and not propagating hate should be free to live freely even if they lifestyle and values are sickening for some people. Not so long we tries to look for a registrar who not having vague TOS allowing to them to take down your website if their disagree with the content. Wording providing them large flexibility to censor. After over 1 week of research, we have only found one. But even this was actually based in a country where a legal action can easily be taken to force them to terminate service. Ironically, we then looked into Russia and we found that hosting there would be our best option if the situation gets heated, because of the politics between them and the West. When it gets to that point, you know something is wrong. The reality is the internet is very censored. Extremely censored nowadays, but there is a lot of propaganda going on to justify this environment. People enjoy censorship until they are the ones being censored. It is like religion, people love seeing they opinion win and others be destroyed. 90% of people happily close their eyes if they opinion and interests are the ones being unfairly and oppressively favored. Handshake is solving a real and serious problem much deeper than what you and most people understand. Handshake is absolutely needed and the problem they solve is REAL, very real and very serious. If you live a normal life, you always think that there is no problem about anything. But if you try to drive change in the world and be a thought leader, then you see things differently and you are confronted to the problems and frictions that prevented your innovation from emerging naturally without your help. The problem faced by democracies these days is that laws are made for those voting from their sofas and "having nothing to hide". However, if there is one thing we should have learned by now (but that nobody seems to have learned) it is that laws and society can only be sound if they are focused on creating the environment that those who create democratic value, intellectual value and economic value need. Not the one that those who want to feel safe, and have everything while doing as little effort as possible want. Giving power to this type of people will always screw a society. But ignoring and oppressing them flat out as was done in the past is not good either. So we started of on the extreme right (monarchy), we moved to the extreme left (populism), so now is the time to find a middle ground. We need to have a conversation about limiting the political influence of most passive "citizens", who maybe should not be considered citizens, until they up their intellectual game. Intellectual-meritocracy-like citizenship system, that would need to be appropriately designed not to elevate one school of thought, philosophical premise or opinion as the only acceptable starting point. But this getting out of topic. If you are interested in this conversation and want in hearing more about these ideas, and even to contribute and share your thoughts, there is a fast-growing international political movement. The mailing list is not public yet but drop me a line and I'll ask them to add you: samuel233[---at---]protonmail.com.
tynes 7y ago
Just make a fun website that is only accessible through the system. Businesses can own a cryptographic asset (their domain name) that can accrue value based on services provided. Potentially people may try to use their domains as collateral or experiment in collective ownership of public services through multisig or DAO like constructions. Hopefully it helps push forward innovation on the chain of trust, opening it up to be something more configurable and dynamic.

troquerre 7y ago

There are many instances where an intolerant minority is able to get a neutral majority to adopt their will. Nassim Taleb describes this as the minority rule. It’s the same reason why all lemonade is kosher* A small minority of people NEED censorship-resistant and seizure-resistant DNS, and the bet is that they can get the majority to adopt Handshake. The key is that Handshake is backwards compatible with existing DNS, so for the majority that don’t care, they can switch to Handshake without problem. I’d also emphasize that in addition to the minority that absolutely needs it, there are millions of prosumers who care about privacy and security as well, as evident by how quickly Cloudflare’s 1.1.1.1 has grown. On the point of Cloudflare, 1.1.1.1 often gets a lot of usage in countries with strict DNS censorship. When Turkey took down twitter.com, people literally spray painted 1.1.1.1 on walls since you could use it to get around the censorship. OpenDNS got a lot of growth outside the US this way as well. In both the case of Cloudflare and OpenDNS, they can’t promote the censorship-resistant use case as strongly because they have a single IP. Handshake doesn’t face the same restriction. Eventually, the goal is to get browsers to adopt Handshake in order to reach the late majority who don’t care either way, but that would only happen after significant bottoms up adoption. At a certain point it’d make sense for Opera and Brave to integrate Handshake, and then Firefox, Edge, and all the other browsers as well. *https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

funfunfunction 7y ago
It’s true that a single static IP address is easy to block, but what is stopping an oppressive regime from building tech specifically designed to block Handshake? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Handshake still functions over IP and as such a government could potentially block all IPs associated with Handshake via similar mechanisms that are used to block a single IP. If there exists some kind of public list of all Handshake resolvers, as, from my understanding, there would have to be, they could very easily continue censoring content deemed inappropriate. I don’t see anything built into the core of this that will solve this problem. Oppressive regimes will adapt. And DNS as it stands is fairly seizure resistant as long as you use secure passwords and the customer services folks don’t get tricked into resetting your account or something. The vision is grand. I’m excited to see where this project goes and will definitely be following along. Best of luck.
- throau45556778 7y ago
  >Handshake still functions over IP and as such a government could potentially block all IPs associated with Handshake via similar mechanisms that are used to block a single IP Blockchains are decentralized. Sometimes a fixed set of bootstrapping nodes is used to improve user experience (rapid connection to the network when opening the app), but if these nodes are blocked it is quite easy to rotate them (and even to make it less easy for an attacker to know the identities of all nodes). A legitimate website that cannot be blocked because it has an unrelated focus can even be used as a shield (some sort of partnership). >And DNS as it stands is fairly seizure resistant as long as you use secure passwords and the customer services folks don’t get tricked into resetting your account or something. You do not know what you are talking about I'm afraid. The internet is censored like hell, and I am not talking about living in China or other authoritative regimes. Activists not agreeing with what you are saying try to censor you like hell these days and registrars bow under the pressure. This is not about right-wing hate speech. Just try to start a political platform about a sensitive topic and see how it goes. Do you want to advocate to allow the marriage of young children and start a democratic discussion about it? Or do you want to host a community of consenting adults believing in a family arrangements in which the man is the lead of the woman and providing practical life advice including how to spank your wife? You'll spend your life wondering when your registrar will take your website down. And these topics really are just examples. I have seen countless websites disappear (and forums where activists organize themselves to pressure registrars). If you confront them and put them in a corner, they admit that they are censoring just because they do not agree, but they invoke the notion of "higher social interest", and "the ends justify the means", and in essence "this is a holy war, they will be collateral damages but we need to prevent irresponsible speech" (which really is the new way to justify intolerance - a very sickening rhetoric). For example with the example of wife spanking among consenting adults (there is not even a knowledge asymmetry between the woman and the man in these communities, the methods and psychology behind this arrangement is discussed openly, and they actually choose this lifestyle because they want the psychological outcomes - they want to program themselves at a subconscious level so to speak. This is totally consensual), I know that many people here think that only a vulnerable and exploited woman could agree with that. And I could point you to women advocating for this, and even animating YouTube channels about it - that may be taken down anytime. And this was only to provide a graphic example, but this not limited to this category of topic. My point is that every majority begins with a minority, and like-minded people, not hating anyone and not propagating hate should be free to live freely even if they lifestyle and values are sickening for some people. Not so long we tries to look for a registrar who not having vague TOS allowing to them to take down your website if their disagree with the content. Wording providing them large flexibility to censor. After over 1 week of research, we have only found one. But even this was actually based in a country where a legal action can easily be taken to force them to terminate service. Ironically, we then looked into Russia and we found that hosting there would be our best option if the situation gets heated, because of the politics between them and the West. When it gets to that point, you know something is wrong. The reality is the internet is very censored. Extremely censored nowadays, but there is a lot of propaganda going on to justify this environment. People enjoy censorship until they are the ones being censored. It is like religion, people love seeing they opinion win and others be destroyed. 90% of people happily close their eyes if they opinion and interests are the ones being unfairly and oppressively favored. Handshake is solving a real and serious problem much deeper than what you and most people understand. Handshake is absolutely needed and the problem they solve is REAL, very real and very serious. If you live a normal life, you always think that there is no problem about anything. But if you try to drive change in the world and be a thought leader, then you see things differently and you are confronted to the problems and frictions that prevented your innovation from emerging naturally without your help. The problem faced by democracies these days is that laws are made for those voting from their sofas and "having nothing to hide". However, if there is one thing we should have learned by now (but that nobody seems to have learned) it is that laws and society can only be sound if they are focused on creating the environment that those who create democratic value, intellectual value and economic value need. Not the one that those who want to feel safe, and have everything while doing as little effort as possible want. Giving power to this type of people will always screw a society. But ignoring and oppressing them flat out as was done in the past is not good either. So we started of on the extreme right (monarchy), we moved to the extreme left (populism), so now is the time to find a middle ground. We need to have a conversation about limiting the political influence of most passive "citizens", who maybe should not be considered citizens, until they up their intellectual game. Intellectual-meritocracy-like citizenship system, that would need to be appropriately designed not to elevate one school of thought, philosophical premise or opinion as the only acceptable starting point. But this getting out of topic. If you are interested in this conversation and want in hearing more about these ideas, and even to contribute and share your thoughts, there is a fast-growing international political movement. The mailing list is not public yet but drop me a line and I'll ask them to add you: samuel233[---at---]protonmail.com.

tynes 7y ago

Just make a fun website that is only accessible through the system. Businesses can own a cryptographic asset (their domain name) that can accrue value based on services provided. Potentially people may try to use their domains as collateral or experiment in collective ownership of public services through multisig or DAO like constructions. Hopefully it helps push forward innovation on the chain of trust, opening it up to be something more configurable and dynamic.