4 ms·

I think a lot of the student debt crisis is self-inflicted. No one is forcing you to attend a 4 year straight from high-school, go to a community college and th

I think a lot of the student debt crisis is self-inflicted. No one is forcing you to attend a 4 year straight from high-school, go to a community college and then transfer to a state school/4 year. (I spent 3 years at a CC, but I graduated from a UC and paid off my student loans within a year) Yes, college is expensive, but there is an existing alternative that everyone seems to forget about and it boggles my mind.

bonoboTP 7y ago
And that is studying in Europe.
uwuhn 7y ago
I did 2 years at CC before going to a UC too. I don't think people are forgetting about it. There are many reasons people choose larger loans instead of transferring, most of which are unreasonable in hindsight once they enter the workforce.
bsanr2 7y ago
Drop-out rates are much higher at community colleges, particularly for low-income and minority students. This is kind of a privileged statement to make. Also, the UC system is one of the few that retains a robust CC-to-university pipeline, so it's not fair to compare the opportunities available in California to those in a lot of places in this country, particularly when so many who would take advantage of what you did are priced out of housing.
jseliger 7y ago
No one is forced to take out any kind of debt; the issue is that typical debt is secured by an asset or dischargeable in bankruptcy. If you make severe mistakes with credit cards, you'll declare bankruptcy and the credit card companies will suffer. This imposes some market discipline on lenders. Banks are (ideally) not eager to make mortgages to people who are likely to become insolvent. Yes, I know about the Great Recession and this was part of the problem. Severe student loans can be incurred starting at age 18 and aren't dischargeable. That's why they're uniquely pernicious. It's typically not possible to fuck up your financial life for decades via most debts, but it is with student loans. We don't know ourselves and the future is unpredictable, and that's why bankruptcy exists. Taking it out of the equation empowers predatory lenders and institutions.
- mattm 7y ago
  Yes this is the main problem. People like the parent commentator look down on young students for being irresponsible when the other side of the deal is even more irresponsible. Lenders are incentivized to loan out as much as possible since they know they will get paid back.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  > No one is forced to take out any kind of debt In practice, I'm not certain this is true. In Massachusetts, a parent can be forced to pay for his over-18 child's college education: https://www.familyneedslaw.com/blog/2019/03/massachusetts-parents-can-be-ordered-to-pay-college-expenses.shtml https://www.familyneedslaw.com/blog/2019/03/massachusetts-pa... I'm unclear as to whether or not the court can force a parent to go into debt to accomplish that.
lawnchair_larry 7y ago
A lot of kids are essentially forced. Maybe not with a gun, but there is strong societal and familial pressure to get into the best school that they can, and that’s engrained into them from a pretty early age. They are taught that their value as a human being is heavily dependent on academic success. Then, the people who raised them, and who they trust the most, tell them to sign on whatever dotted line is in front of them. The finances take care of themselves later! The administrators act as though it’s business as usual. The student is their proxy to government guaranteed money. Since student loans can’t be discharged, it’s not even that banks relax their standards. It’s much worse than that. They’re now financially incentivized to give out as much debt as they possibly can. The more they lend, the more they are guaranteed to profit. Money is free, so schools raise their prices and hire more staff. I don’t really blame the students at all. Most people are surprisingly financially illiterate, and 17 year olds are especially naive. Their brains are not fully formed. We don’t let them buy cigarettes or look at naked people, because we don’t trust them. Yet we throw them in this game with seasoned adult professionals who work with complex financial instruments for a living, and we somehow expect them to come out alive. Sure, many individuals will navigate this just fine, but, predictably, those ones are lost in the noise when you measure populations. The only thing that boggles my mind is the fact that we haven’t corrected it yet, and most of the current proposals sound like they will actually make the problem worse. Bernie wants to make tuition free! That sounds like a pre-emptive bailout on a blank check. If you want to understand why people seem to be inexplicably bad with money, it’s important to realize that their brain doesn’t work like yours does. So any assumptions based on what you think is logical are worthless in furthering your understanding.
- jalgos_eminator 7y ago
  I mentioned this to my parents and they basically brushed it off. We were told from middle school onward that you need a bachelors degree to succeed. We were even shown graphs about average lifetime earnings. High school students are woefully unprepared to weigh the financial decisions that college requires.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
wnmurphy 7y ago
+1. Community colleges are like a cheat code. You pay a fraction of the cost for the same GE classes, you have far less competition transferring in as a junior than as a freshman, and you're a more attractive applicant because you've had two years to realize you don't actually want to major in electrical engineering. Many community colleges even have transfer agreements with universities; you just check the courses off the pre-agreed upon list, and you're guaranteed admission.
jriot 7y ago
You left the best one - join the military! Not only will your college be paid for while in, but you have the GI Bill when you separate and if you were forward-thinking choose a job that is marketable on the outside e.g., air traffic control.

bonoboTP 7y ago

And that is studying in Europe.

uwuhn 7y ago

I did 2 years at CC before going to a UC too. I don't think people are forgetting about it. There are many reasons people choose larger loans instead of transferring, most of which are unreasonable in hindsight once they enter the workforce.

bsanr2 7y ago

Drop-out rates are much higher at community colleges, particularly for low-income and minority students. This is kind of a privileged statement to make. Also, the UC system is one of the few that retains a robust CC-to-university pipeline, so it's not fair to compare the opportunities available in California to those in a lot of places in this country, particularly when so many who would take advantage of what you did are priced out of housing.

jseliger 7y ago

No one is forced to take out any kind of debt; the issue is that typical debt is secured by an asset or dischargeable in bankruptcy. If you make severe mistakes with credit cards, you'll declare bankruptcy and the credit card companies will suffer. This imposes some market discipline on lenders. Banks are (ideally) not eager to make mortgages to people who are likely to become insolvent. Yes, I know about the Great Recession and this was part of the problem. Severe student loans can be incurred starting at age 18 and aren't dischargeable. That's why they're uniquely pernicious. It's typically not possible to fuck up your financial life for decades via most debts, but it is with student loans. We don't know ourselves and the future is unpredictable, and that's why bankruptcy exists. Taking it out of the equation empowers predatory lenders and institutions.

mattm 7y ago
Yes this is the main problem. People like the parent commentator look down on young students for being irresponsible when the other side of the deal is even more irresponsible. Lenders are incentivized to loan out as much as possible since they know they will get paid back.
DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
> No one is forced to take out any kind of debt In practice, I'm not certain this is true. In Massachusetts, a parent can be forced to pay for his over-18 child's college education: https://www.familyneedslaw.com/blog/2019/03/massachusetts-parents-can-be-ordered-to-pay-college-expenses.shtml https://www.familyneedslaw.com/blog/2019/03/massachusetts-pa... I'm unclear as to whether or not the court can force a parent to go into debt to accomplish that.

lawnchair_larry 7y ago

A lot of kids are essentially forced. Maybe not with a gun, but there is strong societal and familial pressure to get into the best school that they can, and that’s engrained into them from a pretty early age. They are taught that their value as a human being is heavily dependent on academic success. Then, the people who raised them, and who they trust the most, tell them to sign on whatever dotted line is in front of them. The finances take care of themselves later! The administrators act as though it’s business as usual. The student is their proxy to government guaranteed money. Since student loans can’t be discharged, it’s not even that banks relax their standards. It’s much worse than that. They’re now financially incentivized to give out as much debt as they possibly can. The more they lend, the more they are guaranteed to profit. Money is free, so schools raise their prices and hire more staff. I don’t really blame the students at all. Most people are surprisingly financially illiterate, and 17 year olds are especially naive. Their brains are not fully formed. We don’t let them buy cigarettes or look at naked people, because we don’t trust them. Yet we throw them in this game with seasoned adult professionals who work with complex financial instruments for a living, and we somehow expect them to come out alive. Sure, many individuals will navigate this just fine, but, predictably, those ones are lost in the noise when you measure populations. The only thing that boggles my mind is the fact that we haven’t corrected it yet, and most of the current proposals sound like they will actually make the problem worse. Bernie wants to make tuition free! That sounds like a pre-emptive bailout on a blank check. If you want to understand why people seem to be inexplicably bad with money, it’s important to realize that their brain doesn’t work like yours does. So any assumptions based on what you think is logical are worthless in furthering your understanding.

jalgos_eminator 7y ago
I mentioned this to my parents and they basically brushed it off. We were told from middle school onward that you need a bachelors degree to succeed. We were even shown graphs about average lifetime earnings. High school students are woefully unprepared to weigh the financial decisions that college requires.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago

wnmurphy 7y ago

+1. Community colleges are like a cheat code. You pay a fraction of the cost for the same GE classes, you have far less competition transferring in as a junior than as a freshman, and you're a more attractive applicant because you've had two years to realize you don't actually want to major in electrical engineering. Many community colleges even have transfer agreements with universities; you just check the courses off the pre-agreed upon list, and you're guaranteed admission.

jriot 7y ago

You left the best one - join the military! Not only will your college be paid for while in, but you have the GI Bill when you separate and if you were forward-thinking choose a job that is marketable on the outside e.g., air traffic control.