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There is no comparison between the US treatment of Snowden and the ongoing human rights violations in China. China has obviously made great economic progress, b

There is no comparison between the US treatment of Snowden and the ongoing human rights violations in China. China has obviously made great economic progress, but it is far from a modern democracy like the US or Taiwan or Japan or South Korea. No amount of whataboutism will change that fact.

crimsonalucard 7y ago
The assumption you're making here is that democracy is the better more "modern" way. In the united states your way of life is controlled primarily by business interests. Democracy has allowed corporations to come into power. In China, the government still has great control. So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest public rail networks in the world for the public good. When's the last time the US did such a thing for the public good? No whataboutism will change the fact that it is controversial whether democracy or centralized control is better. There are no clear answers and therefore no need to vilify one country as some despotic dystopia. The truth is far milder.
- pcwalton 7y ago
  > So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest public rail networks in the world for the public good. When's the last time the US did such a thing for the public good? Public works projects happen all the time here. This is such a silly argument. > No whataboutism will change the fact that it is controversial whether democracy or centralized control is better. No, it's not.
  - crimsonalucard 7y ago
    >Public works projects happen all the time here. This is such a silly argument. On the scale of China? No. On the scale of Europe? No. On the scale of Asia? No. Public works is one of the weakest things about the united states. A big portion of your money goes to military! If you're counting the F-35 as public works then yes America spends more money than all the other countries.
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest censoring apparatus in the world, the great Firewall?
- frequentnapper 7y ago
  I will never visit china because I said "fuck china" too many times online and I think even by transiting through there I might be detained and put on death row on some trumped up charges like other Canadians. No thanks.
  - kwizzt 7y ago
    Honestly, no one is going to care about either your or my comments about Chinese government on this niche forum. Think about it, what would Chinese government gain by arresting you? And why would they start looking at your comment history on hn at all?
    - frequentnapper 7y ago
      not just hn. i've said it elsewhere. they may not even need to "look" in the future. They may just have systems in place that will just identify and catalogue all criticisms of china. And the system would then just pass your name through such a catalogue when doing a standard check on you as you pass through or travel there. Wouldn't be that hard for them to do.
  - tirpen 7y ago
    Then again, as a Europen, I've said "Fuck China" and "Fuck The US" about equally often lately and would never consider visiting either until conditions improve...
- dshia 7y ago
  > So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest public rail networks in the world for the public good. I don't know how good you know about Chinese government. But I think you made a mistake about the purpose of the investment and building by Chinese gov. The rail network is not "for the public good", at least it's not the major reason. It's for keeping GDP growth rate looks as high as possible otherwise no one/country can buy the over-produced industrial products like concrete and steels after subprime mortgage crisis. > The assumption you're making here is that democracy is the better more "modern" way. Democracy is not perfect but I am sure CCP is much worse.
  - crimsonalucard 7y ago
    >Democracy is not perfect but I am sure CCP is much worse. This is Debate-able. If it's worse, it's not that much worse. >I don't know how good you know about Chinese government. But I think you made a mistake about the purpose of the investment and building by Chinese gov. The rail network is not "for the public good", at least it's not the major reason. It's for keeping GDP growth rate looks as high as possible otherwise no one/country can buy the over-produced industrial products like concrete and steels after subprime mortgage crisis. Isn't improving GDP a public good? What's better in your opinion? Bailing out a bank and letting the execs go on a vacation or building rail infrastructure? But I get what you're saying. I would say for public rails it's both GDP and helping people move across the country. Cities with rail are way more efficient than cities without.
    - dshia 7y ago
      The increasing of that GDP was just the number. The Chinese national bank just produced more money and pay them to the building company. It's inflation. People cannot got much good from it.
angled 7y ago
Here's a naive view: both the US and China have the death penalty. Hong Kong does not have the death penalty. Which is the more humane society? Having been in both the US and China, I cannot think of more similar countries at the individual level for day to day activities, and when comparing local district governments. People still want to eat, get rich, and be happy, all as conveniently as possible, with minimal obvious intrusion from others. Only above that (and the US constitution is definitely a federal-level document) are there noticeable differences. It's a real shame, there is a lot of innovation on both sides that would be wonderful to combine. Hong Kong is missing its chance by focusing on its conglomerates.
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  I couldn't of put it better myself. There's real ignorance in america, many people don't agree with you, simply because they've never been to china.
tim58 7y ago
> the ongoing human rights violations in China We have ongoing human rights violations in the US. I'm not saying The United States is on equal moral footing with The People's Republic of China. I'm saying that both have a terrible track record, and claiming one is vastly superior is a reflection of your nationalism.

crimsonalucard 7y ago

The assumption you're making here is that democracy is the better more "modern" way. In the united states your way of life is controlled primarily by business interests. Democracy has allowed corporations to come into power. In China, the government still has great control. So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest public rail networks in the world for the public good. When's the last time the US did such a thing for the public good? No whataboutism will change the fact that it is controversial whether democracy or centralized control is better. There are no clear answers and therefore no need to vilify one country as some despotic dystopia. The truth is far milder.

pcwalton 7y ago
> So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest public rail networks in the world for the public good. When's the last time the US did such a thing for the public good? Public works projects happen all the time here. This is such a silly argument. > No whataboutism will change the fact that it is controversial whether democracy or centralized control is better. No, it's not.
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  >Public works projects happen all the time here. This is such a silly argument. On the scale of China? No. On the scale of Europe? No. On the scale of Asia? No. Public works is one of the weakest things about the united states. A big portion of your money goes to military! If you're counting the F-35 as public works then yes America spends more money than all the other countries.
onemoresoop 7y ago
So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest censoring apparatus in the world, the great Firewall?
frequentnapper 7y ago
I will never visit china because I said "fuck china" too many times online and I think even by transiting through there I might be detained and put on death row on some trumped up charges like other Canadians. No thanks.
- kwizzt 7y ago
  Honestly, no one is going to care about either your or my comments about Chinese government on this niche forum. Think about it, what would Chinese government gain by arresting you? And why would they start looking at your comment history on hn at all?
  - frequentnapper 7y ago
    not just hn. i've said it elsewhere. they may not even need to "look" in the future. They may just have systems in place that will just identify and catalogue all criticisms of china. And the system would then just pass your name through such a catalogue when doing a standard check on you as you pass through or travel there. Wouldn't be that hard for them to do.
- tirpen 7y ago
  Then again, as a Europen, I've said "Fuck China" and "Fuck The US" about equally often lately and would never consider visiting either until conditions improve...
dshia 7y ago
> So great is their control that they've built one of the greatest public rail networks in the world for the public good. I don't know how good you know about Chinese government. But I think you made a mistake about the purpose of the investment and building by Chinese gov. The rail network is not "for the public good", at least it's not the major reason. It's for keeping GDP growth rate looks as high as possible otherwise no one/country can buy the over-produced industrial products like concrete and steels after subprime mortgage crisis. > The assumption you're making here is that democracy is the better more "modern" way. Democracy is not perfect but I am sure CCP is much worse.
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  >Democracy is not perfect but I am sure CCP is much worse. This is Debate-able. If it's worse, it's not that much worse. >I don't know how good you know about Chinese government. But I think you made a mistake about the purpose of the investment and building by Chinese gov. The rail network is not "for the public good", at least it's not the major reason. It's for keeping GDP growth rate looks as high as possible otherwise no one/country can buy the over-produced industrial products like concrete and steels after subprime mortgage crisis. Isn't improving GDP a public good? What's better in your opinion? Bailing out a bank and letting the execs go on a vacation or building rail infrastructure? But I get what you're saying. I would say for public rails it's both GDP and helping people move across the country. Cities with rail are way more efficient than cities without.
  - dshia 7y ago
    The increasing of that GDP was just the number. The Chinese national bank just produced more money and pay them to the building company. It's inflation. People cannot got much good from it.

angled 7y ago

Here's a naive view: both the US and China have the death penalty. Hong Kong does not have the death penalty. Which is the more humane society? Having been in both the US and China, I cannot think of more similar countries at the individual level for day to day activities, and when comparing local district governments. People still want to eat, get rich, and be happy, all as conveniently as possible, with minimal obvious intrusion from others. Only above that (and the US constitution is definitely a federal-level document) are there noticeable differences. It's a real shame, there is a lot of innovation on both sides that would be wonderful to combine. Hong Kong is missing its chance by focusing on its conglomerates.

crimsonalucard 7y ago
I couldn't of put it better myself. There's real ignorance in america, many people don't agree with you, simply because they've never been to china.

tim58 7y ago

> the ongoing human rights violations in China We have ongoing human rights violations in the US. I'm not saying The United States is on equal moral footing with The People's Republic of China. I'm saying that both have a terrible track record, and claiming one is vastly superior is a reflection of your nationalism.