4 ms·

Minsky didn't have consensual sex. She was coerced. Age of sexual consent isn't relevant here. We need to legal age for prostitution. Does any US state or any

by DanBC 7y ago

Minsky didn't have consensual sex. She was coerced. Age of sexual consent isn't relevant here. We need to legal age for prostitution. Does any US state or any EU country set that below 18? But also, it doesn't matter. US federal law makes it a crime to travel abroad to have sex with people under 18. https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-extraterritorial-sexual-exploitation-children https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-fede...

gwd 7y ago
We're not talking about Minsky; we're talking about a hit piece on Richard Stallman, which brings up his opinion on the morality of sleeping with 17-year-olds as a reason to revile him. The age of consent in Finland is apparently 16. Should we ask Linus Torvalds what his opinions on the matter are, and force him to step down if he disagrees? The age of consent in Italy is apparently 14 (!). I know a number of Italians prominently involved in the kernel community; shall we ask them what their opinions are? It's important that we distinguish exactly what it is that we're accusing someone of, and make sure that each individual element is true, for two reasons. One is just plain justice sake: it's not right to railroad someone and force them to step down from the organization they founded based on bad logic and twisted facts. The second is, Stallman is not the only target here: everyone else is looking at this and deciding how they need to act in response. If what the average guy sees is "he expressed a minority viewpoint and he was lynched", then they'll learn to simply not express minority viewpoints; they won't see what was really problematic about either the current behavior, or Stallman's history. His "but is it really assault" defense of Minsky is definitely problematic given his position and the situation. And apparently he's had a long history of "creepy" behavior, along with a long history of people telling him he needs to change. Those are good reasons to ask him to step down. But it is not true that Richard Stallman said the girl was "entirely willing"; that is just a lie, and covers up the real problems Stallman had. And regarding his question about whether a 17-year-old can give consent -- be consistent: either drop this issue, or take it up with every European in our community.
- DanBC 7y ago
  We are talking about Minsky, because it's Stallman's comments about Minsky that are the problem. > The age of consent in Finland is apparently 16. 1) Not for Americans visiting Finland. 2) Not for prostitutes in Finland. > But it is not true that Richard Stallman said the girl was "entirely willing"; I haven't said this. I'm focussing on the things that Stallman actually said. You yourself agree that these are enough to ask Stallman to step down. > he second is, Stallman is not the only target here: everyone else is looking at this and deciding how they need to act in response. If what the average guy sees is "he expressed a minority viewpoint and he was lynched", then they'll learn to simply not express minority viewpoints; they won't see what was really problematic about either the current behavior, or Stallman's history. Yes, this is entirely the point. We don't want powerful men to make public comments saying that fucking children is fine so long as those children have been brutalised into looking willing. We don't want powerful men saying that "voluntary" child sexual abuse isn't harmful for those children.
  - Chris2048 7y ago
    > is fine so long as those children have been brutalised into looking willing Stallman never said "it's fine", He called Epstein a rapist - i.e. indicated it was whoever did the brutalising who is to blame. Also, it was a 17 year old, not a child.
rurban 7y ago
Minsky didn't have sex at all with Guiffre. The various hitpieces on Minsky were all based on vague court documents by her, where she described that she was asked to approach him. Amongst others. We have an eyewitness, who testified that she indeed approached him at the island, and that Minsky turned her down. That should have been the end of the story, but the various hitpieces on Minsky didn't stop. http://archive.is/nZIjt http://archive.is/nZIjt The particular crime in question is called slander, nor rape. RMS made too liberal comments about the age of consent rule though.
- gwd 7y ago
  > RMS made too liberal comments about the age of consent rule though. What I consider worse is his "but was it really assault" defense. The question itself is framed in a hypothetical world: "Suppose Guiffre was coerced. And suppose that Minsky did in fact sleep with her, but without knowing she was coerced. Is that really so bad?" Well, yes, it would be bad. In the hypothetical situation described, Minsky should have seen lots of red flags. That hypothetical situation is the behavior that Stallman is downplaying. When a person in power makes that kind of defense, it protects sexual predators and silences their victims: it signals that the next time there is this situation, similar behavior will be defended and similar complaints ignored. Regardless of whether or not Minsky slept with Guiffre, Stallman's comments were a harmful thing for someone in his position to have said. And what makes me angry about the "hit pieces" is that this angle is completely lost -- he's being attacked for saying Guiffre was "entirely willing" (which he never said) and for questioning whether 17 is really too young to consent (which apparently all of Europe questions). Nobody is going to learn about how to avoid accidentally using your influence to protect sexual predators; all they're going to learn is not to touch any contentious topic with a barge pole for fear of being heinously misrepresented.

by DanBC 7y ago

gwd 7y ago

We're not talking about Minsky; we're talking about a hit piece on Richard Stallman, which brings up his opinion on the morality of sleeping with 17-year-olds as a reason to revile him. The age of consent in Finland is apparently 16. Should we ask Linus Torvalds what his opinions on the matter are, and force him to step down if he disagrees? The age of consent in Italy is apparently 14 (!). I know a number of Italians prominently involved in the kernel community; shall we ask them what their opinions are? It's important that we distinguish exactly what it is that we're accusing someone of, and make sure that each individual element is true, for two reasons. One is just plain justice sake: it's not right to railroad someone and force them to step down from the organization they founded based on bad logic and twisted facts. The second is, Stallman is not the only target here: everyone else is looking at this and deciding how they need to act in response. If what the average guy sees is "he expressed a minority viewpoint and he was lynched", then they'll learn to simply not express minority viewpoints; they won't see what was really problematic about either the current behavior, or Stallman's history. His "but is it really assault" defense of Minsky is definitely problematic given his position and the situation. And apparently he's had a long history of "creepy" behavior, along with a long history of people telling him he needs to change. Those are good reasons to ask him to step down. But it is not true that Richard Stallman said the girl was "entirely willing"; that is just a lie, and covers up the real problems Stallman had. And regarding his question about whether a 17-year-old can give consent -- be consistent: either drop this issue, or take it up with every European in our community.

DanBC 7y ago
We are talking about Minsky, because it's Stallman's comments about Minsky that are the problem. > The age of consent in Finland is apparently 16. 1) Not for Americans visiting Finland. 2) Not for prostitutes in Finland. > But it is not true that Richard Stallman said the girl was "entirely willing"; I haven't said this. I'm focussing on the things that Stallman actually said. You yourself agree that these are enough to ask Stallman to step down. > he second is, Stallman is not the only target here: everyone else is looking at this and deciding how they need to act in response. If what the average guy sees is "he expressed a minority viewpoint and he was lynched", then they'll learn to simply not express minority viewpoints; they won't see what was really problematic about either the current behavior, or Stallman's history. Yes, this is entirely the point. We don't want powerful men to make public comments saying that fucking children is fine so long as those children have been brutalised into looking willing. We don't want powerful men saying that "voluntary" child sexual abuse isn't harmful for those children.
- Chris2048 7y ago
  > is fine so long as those children have been brutalised into looking willing Stallman never said "it's fine", He called Epstein a rapist - i.e. indicated it was whoever did the brutalising who is to blame. Also, it was a 17 year old, not a child.

rurban 7y ago

Minsky didn't have sex at all with Guiffre. The various hitpieces on Minsky were all based on vague court documents by her, where she described that she was asked to approach him. Amongst others. We have an eyewitness, who testified that she indeed approached him at the island, and that Minsky turned her down. That should have been the end of the story, but the various hitpieces on Minsky didn't stop. http://archive.is/nZIjt http://archive.is/nZIjt The particular crime in question is called slander, nor rape. RMS made too liberal comments about the age of consent rule though.

gwd 7y ago
> RMS made too liberal comments about the age of consent rule though. What I consider worse is his "but was it really assault" defense. The question itself is framed in a hypothetical world: "Suppose Guiffre was coerced. And suppose that Minsky did in fact sleep with her, but without knowing she was coerced. Is that really so bad?" Well, yes, it would be bad. In the hypothetical situation described, Minsky should have seen lots of red flags. That hypothetical situation is the behavior that Stallman is downplaying. When a person in power makes that kind of defense, it protects sexual predators and silences their victims: it signals that the next time there is this situation, similar behavior will be defended and similar complaints ignored. Regardless of whether or not Minsky slept with Guiffre, Stallman's comments were a harmful thing for someone in his position to have said. And what makes me angry about the "hit pieces" is that this angle is completely lost -- he's being attacked for saying Guiffre was "entirely willing" (which he never said) and for questioning whether 17 is really too young to consent (which apparently all of Europe questions). Nobody is going to learn about how to avoid accidentally using your influence to protect sexual predators; all they're going to learn is not to touch any contentious topic with a barge pole for fear of being heinously misrepresented.