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> Stallman’s second argument, points out the inconsistencies regarding the age of consent, as the victim was 17, many countries and states within the U.S. have

> Stallman’s second argument, points out the inconsistencies regarding the age of consent, as the victim was 17, many countries and states within the U.S. have an age of consent ranging from 16 to 18. Stallman is merely pointing out how the same act can be legal or illegal in a span of a few miles. "is merely pointing out"? No. That is completely inaccurate. He's saying it is "morally absurd" to have such a law: > I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.

gruez 7y ago
>He's saying it is "morally absurd" to have such a law: >> I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17. That's not the impression I got when reading that quote. I don't think when he says "define rape", he was talking about the legal point of view.
- VikingCoder 7y ago
  Really? "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing." https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...
  - gruez 7y ago
    >Really? Is the alternate interpretation not plausible? After all, there's a reason why in such cases it's called "statutory rape" rather than just "rape". >https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20.. https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20.... Again, not sure how that supports your original comment. He says he's skeptical whether it's harmful. It's reasonable interpret that as him disapproving of such laws, on the basis that there isn't enough evidence. However, I'm not sure how that supports the claim he thinks such laws are "morally absurd".
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      Mostly it's the name. Sex with minor would be a good enough name but no, let's up the ante by always calling it rape. This allows the use of name rape for additionally making cases harsher when abuse or coercion was present. And in Poland, there's also modifier "with extreme cruelty" on top, generally involving physical violence.
gwd 7y ago
My impression was that Stallman wasn't making a clear distinction between what was legal and what was moral; and that he was primarily focused on people's moral outrage. He seems less concerned with whether what Minsky did was a crime, and more concerned with Minsky's portrayal as a sexual predator. In countries such as France or Germany -- hardly barbaric backwaters -- it seems it's perfectly legal to have consensual sex with 15-year-olds[1]. So maybe he does think that America's laws are "absurdly" strict; in which case most of Europe would agree with him. Or maybe he's just making the point that this is an area where many reasonable people come to different conclusions, and so it's absurd to be so outraged about it. I mean, I have a hard time understanding how anyone could think a 15-year-old can possibly be considered to consent to have sex with someone in their 20's. But obviously a lot of Europe thinks differently; if you're going to cut off ties with Stallman for his view on the matter, you'd better cut off ties with all of Europe too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe edit: Forgot the reference
- DanBC 7y ago
  Minsky didn't have consensual sex. She was coerced. Age of sexual consent isn't relevant here. We need to legal age for prostitution. Does any US state or any EU country set that below 18? But also, it doesn't matter. US federal law makes it a crime to travel abroad to have sex with people under 18. https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-extraterritorial-sexual-exploitation-children https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-fede...
  - gwd 7y ago
    We're not talking about Minsky; we're talking about a hit piece on Richard Stallman, which brings up his opinion on the morality of sleeping with 17-year-olds as a reason to revile him. The age of consent in Finland is apparently 16. Should we ask Linus Torvalds what his opinions on the matter are, and force him to step down if he disagrees? The age of consent in Italy is apparently 14 (!). I know a number of Italians prominently involved in the kernel community; shall we ask them what their opinions are? It's important that we distinguish exactly what it is that we're accusing someone of, and make sure that each individual element is true, for two reasons. One is just plain justice sake: it's not right to railroad someone and force them to step down from the organization they founded based on bad logic and twisted facts. The second is, Stallman is not the only target here: everyone else is looking at this and deciding how they need to act in response. If what the average guy sees is "he expressed a minority viewpoint and he was lynched", then they'll learn to simply not express minority viewpoints; they won't see what was really problematic about either the current behavior, or Stallman's history. His "but is it really assault" defense of Minsky is definitely problematic given his position and the situation. And apparently he's had a long history of "creepy" behavior, along with a long history of people telling him he needs to change. Those are good reasons to ask him to step down. But it is not true that Richard Stallman said the girl was "entirely willing"; that is just a lie, and covers up the real problems Stallman had. And regarding his question about whether a 17-year-old can give consent -- be consistent: either drop this issue, or take it up with every European in our community.
amanzi 7y ago
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but my understanding of his position is that he doesn't believe the word 'rape' should be used for having sex with someone younger than the age of consent, when that age varies around the world. In other words, having consensual sex with a 16 year old in one country (or state) could be called rape, but move a short distance to another country or state and it's perfectly legal and acceptable. My interpretation of his opinions based on what I've read, is that the word rape should be only used for nonconsensual sexual assault, regardless of the age. Some further reading on the age of consent in different countries around the world: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/age-of-consent-around-the-world.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/age-of-consent-around-th... "The legal age of consent in most of the countries is 16 years or above, as individuals of this age are considered to be mature and capable of making informed decisions."
- VikingCoder 7y ago
  I don't believe he's arguing about the word. I think he's arguing whether it should be illegal. "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing." https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    It's an interesting claim and we actually lack decent research on this. That would be hard to obtain though. That said, Stallman decided later nobody should still do it. Perhaps though scorched earth prosecution is not the best in some cases. Judges understand this in EU countries, juries often don't. This does not include Epstein or even Minsky.

gruez 7y ago

>He's saying it is "morally absurd" to have such a law: >> I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17. That's not the impression I got when reading that quote. I don't think when he says "define rape", he was talking about the legal point of view.

VikingCoder 7y ago
Really? "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing." https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...
- gruez 7y ago
  >Really? Is the alternate interpretation not plausible? After all, there's a reason why in such cases it's called "statutory rape" rather than just "rape". >https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20.. https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20.... Again, not sure how that supports your original comment. He says he's skeptical whether it's harmful. It's reasonable interpret that as him disapproving of such laws, on the basis that there isn't enough evidence. However, I'm not sure how that supports the claim he thinks such laws are "morally absurd".
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Mostly it's the name. Sex with minor would be a good enough name but no, let's up the ante by always calling it rape. This allows the use of name rape for additionally making cases harsher when abuse or coercion was present. And in Poland, there's also modifier "with extreme cruelty" on top, generally involving physical violence.

gwd 7y ago

My impression was that Stallman wasn't making a clear distinction between what was legal and what was moral; and that he was primarily focused on people's moral outrage. He seems less concerned with whether what Minsky did was a crime, and more concerned with Minsky's portrayal as a sexual predator. In countries such as France or Germany -- hardly barbaric backwaters -- it seems it's perfectly legal to have consensual sex with 15-year-olds[1]. So maybe he does think that America's laws are "absurdly" strict; in which case most of Europe would agree with him. Or maybe he's just making the point that this is an area where many reasonable people come to different conclusions, and so it's absurd to be so outraged about it. I mean, I have a hard time understanding how anyone could think a 15-year-old can possibly be considered to consent to have sex with someone in their 20's. But obviously a lot of Europe thinks differently; if you're going to cut off ties with Stallman for his view on the matter, you'd better cut off ties with all of Europe too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe edit: Forgot the reference

DanBC 7y ago
Minsky didn't have consensual sex. She was coerced. Age of sexual consent isn't relevant here. We need to legal age for prostitution. Does any US state or any EU country set that below 18? But also, it doesn't matter. US federal law makes it a crime to travel abroad to have sex with people under 18. https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-extraterritorial-sexual-exploitation-children https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-fede...
- gwd 7y ago
  We're not talking about Minsky; we're talking about a hit piece on Richard Stallman, which brings up his opinion on the morality of sleeping with 17-year-olds as a reason to revile him. The age of consent in Finland is apparently 16. Should we ask Linus Torvalds what his opinions on the matter are, and force him to step down if he disagrees? The age of consent in Italy is apparently 14 (!). I know a number of Italians prominently involved in the kernel community; shall we ask them what their opinions are? It's important that we distinguish exactly what it is that we're accusing someone of, and make sure that each individual element is true, for two reasons. One is just plain justice sake: it's not right to railroad someone and force them to step down from the organization they founded based on bad logic and twisted facts. The second is, Stallman is not the only target here: everyone else is looking at this and deciding how they need to act in response. If what the average guy sees is "he expressed a minority viewpoint and he was lynched", then they'll learn to simply not express minority viewpoints; they won't see what was really problematic about either the current behavior, or Stallman's history. His "but is it really assault" defense of Minsky is definitely problematic given his position and the situation. And apparently he's had a long history of "creepy" behavior, along with a long history of people telling him he needs to change. Those are good reasons to ask him to step down. But it is not true that Richard Stallman said the girl was "entirely willing"; that is just a lie, and covers up the real problems Stallman had. And regarding his question about whether a 17-year-old can give consent -- be consistent: either drop this issue, or take it up with every European in our community.

amanzi 7y ago

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but my understanding of his position is that he doesn't believe the word 'rape' should be used for having sex with someone younger than the age of consent, when that age varies around the world. In other words, having consensual sex with a 16 year old in one country (or state) could be called rape, but move a short distance to another country or state and it's perfectly legal and acceptable. My interpretation of his opinions based on what I've read, is that the word rape should be only used for nonconsensual sexual assault, regardless of the age. Some further reading on the age of consent in different countries around the world: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/age-of-consent-around-the-world.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/age-of-consent-around-th... "The legal age of consent in most of the countries is 16 years or above, as individuals of this age are considered to be mature and capable of making informed decisions."

VikingCoder 7y ago
I don't believe he's arguing about the word. I think he's arguing whether it should be illegal. "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing." https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  It's an interesting claim and we actually lack decent research on this. That would be hard to obtain though. That said, Stallman decided later nobody should still do it. Perhaps though scorched earth prosecution is not the best in some cases. Judges understand this in EU countries, juries often don't. This does not include Epstein or even Minsky.