4 ms·

How does that jive with: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall

How does that jive with: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Probably the same way civil asset forfeiture does, somehow precedent became the supreme law of the land as opposed to the constitution.

txcwpalpha 7y ago
I really have no idea why the 4th amendment only applies to a subset of mail, just that it does. It'd be great if someone with more knowledge could explain the reasoning behind it.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  I would imagine there is more of a compelling state interest in protecting against actual "things" (contraband, bombs, etc), whereas a letter can pretty much only contain "speech".
  - txcwpalpha 7y ago
    My original comment was apparently unclear in this, but in regards to the 4th amendment protections, there isn't a distinction between "things" being sent via mail and "speech" being sent by mail. Some letters of "speech" are not covered by the 4th amendment, just as some bulk shipments of "things" are covered by the 4th amendment.
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      That distinction isn't drawn in the 4th Amendment itself. It comes from from 39 CFR § 233.3, which defines the rules and procedures for searching mail ("mail covers"). There, a distinction is drawn between (3)Sealed mail is mail that under postal laws and regulations is included within a class of mail maintained by the Postal Service for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection... and (4)Unsealed mail is mail that under postal laws or regulations is not included within a class of mail maintained by the Postal Service for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection.... https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/39/233.3 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/39/233.3 I would guess the justification is that 1) the potential for mischief is much lower with a letter vs. an item and 2) the unsealed categories are usually cheaper (periodicals, etc) and the Post Office should be able to verify that the mailed item really qualifies for the lower rate.
      - txcwpalpha 7y ago
        Sealed vs Unsealed has more nuanced definitions than just "letter"/speech and "item"/things, though. If you look a bit further past the quotes you provided, you'll see: >Sealed mail includes: First-Class Mail; Priority Mail; Priority Mail Express; Shipped packages ("things") can be (but aren't always) sent as First Class or Priority Mail, and thus would fall under the "sealed" category as well. OTOH, you can also send normal letters (not periodicals or marketing material) as "standard mail" which would make them unsealed (I don't know why you would do this as opposed to sending it as First Class or Priority, but you can). Basically, USPS provides a service where, regardless of what you are sending in most cases, you can choose whether or not you want it protected by the 4th amendment. The origins of this "choice" (and why it isn't the standard to always being protected) is where I am more confused. And when talking about parallels to electronic media, I think this is an important point, because if this is the case for physical mail, it also stands to reason that electronic media for some reason might not default to being protected by the 4th amendment, either.
        mattkrause 7y ago
        You're making this way more mysterious-sounding than it is. As the text says, those first categories are INTENDED for sealed letters. Things shipped in those ways therefore retain the privacy protections of letters. You can put a (small) rock or whatever in there instead--that's your business--and if you do, the Post Office will never know because they're applying the letter-privacy standard and not looking inside. The other categories are NOT INTENDED for letters. As a result, they don't get the protection intended for letters. You can, of course, try to send something confidential that way, but if it's exposed, that's on you.
        txcwpalpha 7y ago
        That simply isn't the case though. First Class Mail (and Priority Mail) are specifically intended for both "letters" as well as "things". A glance at the USPS website shows this. Indeed, even in the CFR you quoted, it specifically mentions certain types of "package" services as sealed mail. I don't know where you're getting that there is a specific "intention" for anything.
Nasrudith 7y ago
Sadly precedent started out the supreme law over the obvious implications - see obscenity laws and their existence. People are just too good at rationalizing and not questioning "the way things are" even in the face of the obvious evidence and become quite upset when the elephant in the room is pointed out.

txcwpalpha 7y ago

I really have no idea why the 4th amendment only applies to a subset of mail, just that it does. It'd be great if someone with more knowledge could explain the reasoning behind it.

mattkrause 7y ago
I would imagine there is more of a compelling state interest in protecting against actual "things" (contraband, bombs, etc), whereas a letter can pretty much only contain "speech".
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  My original comment was apparently unclear in this, but in regards to the 4th amendment protections, there isn't a distinction between "things" being sent via mail and "speech" being sent by mail. Some letters of "speech" are not covered by the 4th amendment, just as some bulk shipments of "things" are covered by the 4th amendment.
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    That distinction isn't drawn in the 4th Amendment itself. It comes from from 39 CFR § 233.3, which defines the rules and procedures for searching mail ("mail covers"). There, a distinction is drawn between (3)Sealed mail is mail that under postal laws and regulations is included within a class of mail maintained by the Postal Service for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection... and (4)Unsealed mail is mail that under postal laws or regulations is not included within a class of mail maintained by the Postal Service for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection.... https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/39/233.3 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/39/233.3 I would guess the justification is that 1) the potential for mischief is much lower with a letter vs. an item and 2) the unsealed categories are usually cheaper (periodicals, etc) and the Post Office should be able to verify that the mailed item really qualifies for the lower rate.
    - txcwpalpha 7y ago
      Sealed vs Unsealed has more nuanced definitions than just "letter"/speech and "item"/things, though. If you look a bit further past the quotes you provided, you'll see: >Sealed mail includes: First-Class Mail; Priority Mail; Priority Mail Express; Shipped packages ("things") can be (but aren't always) sent as First Class or Priority Mail, and thus would fall under the "sealed" category as well. OTOH, you can also send normal letters (not periodicals or marketing material) as "standard mail" which would make them unsealed (I don't know why you would do this as opposed to sending it as First Class or Priority, but you can). Basically, USPS provides a service where, regardless of what you are sending in most cases, you can choose whether or not you want it protected by the 4th amendment. The origins of this "choice" (and why it isn't the standard to always being protected) is where I am more confused. And when talking about parallels to electronic media, I think this is an important point, because if this is the case for physical mail, it also stands to reason that electronic media for some reason might not default to being protected by the 4th amendment, either.
      - mattkrause 7y ago
        You're making this way more mysterious-sounding than it is. As the text says, those first categories are INTENDED for sealed letters. Things shipped in those ways therefore retain the privacy protections of letters. You can put a (small) rock or whatever in there instead--that's your business--and if you do, the Post Office will never know because they're applying the letter-privacy standard and not looking inside. The other categories are NOT INTENDED for letters. As a result, they don't get the protection intended for letters. You can, of course, try to send something confidential that way, but if it's exposed, that's on you.
        txcwpalpha 7y ago
        That simply isn't the case though. First Class Mail (and Priority Mail) are specifically intended for both "letters" as well as "things". A glance at the USPS website shows this. Indeed, even in the CFR you quoted, it specifically mentions certain types of "package" services as sealed mail. I don't know where you're getting that there is a specific "intention" for anything.

Nasrudith 7y ago

Sadly precedent started out the supreme law over the obvious implications - see obscenity laws and their existence. People are just too good at rationalizing and not questioning "the way things are" even in the face of the obvious evidence and become quite upset when the elephant in the room is pointed out.