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I did not say that A isn't 1. In fact, in my comment I specifically acknowledge that A is 1 (some types of mail are protected by the 4th amendment). Please do n

I did not say that A isn't 1. In fact, in my comment I specifically acknowledge that A is 1 (some types of mail are protected by the 4th amendment). Please do not try to construct a straw man. The point is that there is already a determination that not all items sent through mail services have an expectation of privacy. If we're drawing a parallel between physical mail and e-mail, this lends to the belief that such a determination could also be made for items sent through electronic media, especially items sent through electronic media that is owned by private companies (ISPs), similar to how private shipping companies do not provide 4th amendment protection. >There certainly is an expectation of privacy in my mail CORRESPONDENCE Not all mail correspondence, which is the point. If you send a letter through USPS standard mail, there is no expectation of privacy. If you send a document through UPS, there is no expectation of privacy. Also, you're getting hung up on the usage of the words "package" vs "correspondence" vs "mail" vs "letter". This is an unnecessary distinction. A letter is just a "package" that contains paper with information on it. The law doesn't see a difference. In my original comment, you should read the words package/letter/mail/correspondence interchangeably.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
> some types of mail are protected by the 4th amendment > The law doesn't see a difference Wow the cognitive dissonance in that is painful to read. Your argument sounds like "Shrodingers cat". It is and isn't at the same time. Ultimately though, it has to collapse into one objective reality ;) > If you send a document through UPS, there is no expectation of privacy. Yeah, again, no. This is directly contradicted by supreme court cases like: "No law of Congress can place in the hands of officials connected with the Postal Service any authority to invade the secrecy of letters and such sealed packages in the mail; and all regulations adopted as to mail matter of this kind must be in subordination to the great principle embodied in the fourth amendment of the Constitution." But then again, some people view laws (like 39 U.S.C. 3623, supreme court precedents or other such concrete objective reality as impediments that must be overcome to see reality as they choose to see it. > you should read the words package/letter/mail/correspondence interchangeably. > some types of mail are protected Aside from the obvious contradiction, that's not how language works. You should really look up these words in a dictionary. It will help you communicate better. In case you want to learn and not just teach people things you are making up: https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/nsa-surveillance-why-the-post-office-doesnt-spy-on-your-mail-the-way-nsa-spies-on-y https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/nsa-surveillance-why-th... P.S. it is a scarecrow because you are answering someone talking about Letters with what happens to packages. This is textbook scarecrow arguments, where you change what is said to attack a new, different argument than the one provided.
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  It isn't cognitive dissonance just because you aren't capable of discerning the difference between the types of mail. It is possible (indeed, it is the case) that the law sees no difference between packages and letters while also making a disctinction elsewhere. In this case, the law makes a distinction between sealed mail and unsealed mail, but it does not consider the fact that they are "letters" or "packages" in this distinction. Again, you're getting hung up on the words "letter" vs "package", and you're constructing a straw man around that. Please take your own advice and avoid such arguments.
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    I'll bite. Where is this distinction? With references please. You keep saying things that are factually and demonstrably untrue: "if you send a letter through USPS standard mail".... but that isn't how mail works. Standard is for commercial packages. You keep saying things that are easy to see are false. In fact, I provided sources, including a law called the Mail classification (39 U.S.C. 3623), "The Postal Service shall maintain one or more classes of mail for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection" The whole idea from the beginning: The mail types you are talking about were specifically created to protect 4th amendment privacy protections. It was classed in to categories that were overall: individuals communicating = more protections... non-individuals doing non-correspondence stuff = less protections. (correspondence as understood: the exchange of ideas between people via the written word) In fact, I gave you a reading where the supreme court specifically said I had an expectation of privacy in my correspondence. I'm still waiting for your evidence that backs up your claim... or for that matter any references or outside sources that verify what you say: > If you send a letter through USPS standard mail, there is no expectation of privacy
mattkrause 7y ago
It's worth noting that "Standard Mail" has a specific meaning here, and refers to things sent in bulk, like newsletters and flyers. It is emphatically not the standard service you would use to mail your aunt a letter. That service is called First Class Mail, and is not to be opened.
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  That's incorrect. "Standard mail" is the type of mail service used for anything that isn't one of the other named mail services, such as First Class or Priority Mail. Things sent in bulk, such as flyers, are an example of standard mail, but that does not preclude anyone from using standard mail to send a normal letter.
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    Wow, you are stretching this into the realm of the unreal. It's like saying no one is precluded from buying military vehicles and driving them, therefore they are not for the military. This is what's needed for standard mail, and no, your letter to your friend will NOT qualify, when will you stop making things up or at least admitting to being wrong? > Standard Mail. Standard Mail usually consists of flyers, circulars, advertising, newsletters, bulletins, catalogs, or other printed pieces that are generally identical in content. Standard mail must be less than 16 ounces and must meet a minimum quantity of 200 pieces or 50 pounds of mail.
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    I don’t think it is. Perhaps you have a lot more aunts than I do, but everything I can find suggests standard mail had a large minimum (200 pieces?) and preprocessing requirements. Here’s a page, from the post office itself: “At one time, it was called Third-Class Mail. Today, it's known as Standard Mail. In 2017, it will be called (USPS) Marketing Mail. The U.S. Postal Service has proposed a name change for Standard Mail to better signal to customers that this mail is used primarily to market a product or service.” https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/names-and-prices-they-are-changinÔÇÖ https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/names-and-prices-they-are-chang...

4ntonius8lock 7y ago

> some types of mail are protected by the 4th amendment > The law doesn't see a difference Wow the cognitive dissonance in that is painful to read. Your argument sounds like "Shrodingers cat". It is and isn't at the same time. Ultimately though, it has to collapse into one objective reality ;) > If you send a document through UPS, there is no expectation of privacy. Yeah, again, no. This is directly contradicted by supreme court cases like: "No law of Congress can place in the hands of officials connected with the Postal Service any authority to invade the secrecy of letters and such sealed packages in the mail; and all regulations adopted as to mail matter of this kind must be in subordination to the great principle embodied in the fourth amendment of the Constitution." But then again, some people view laws (like 39 U.S.C. 3623, supreme court precedents or other such concrete objective reality as impediments that must be overcome to see reality as they choose to see it. > you should read the words package/letter/mail/correspondence interchangeably. > some types of mail are protected Aside from the obvious contradiction, that's not how language works. You should really look up these words in a dictionary. It will help you communicate better. In case you want to learn and not just teach people things you are making up: https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/nsa-surveillance-why-the-post-office-doesnt-spy-on-your-mail-the-way-nsa-spies-on-y https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/nsa-surveillance-why-th... P.S. it is a scarecrow because you are answering someone talking about Letters with what happens to packages. This is textbook scarecrow arguments, where you change what is said to attack a new, different argument than the one provided.

txcwpalpha 7y ago
It isn't cognitive dissonance just because you aren't capable of discerning the difference between the types of mail. It is possible (indeed, it is the case) that the law sees no difference between packages and letters while also making a disctinction elsewhere. In this case, the law makes a distinction between sealed mail and unsealed mail, but it does not consider the fact that they are "letters" or "packages" in this distinction. Again, you're getting hung up on the words "letter" vs "package", and you're constructing a straw man around that. Please take your own advice and avoid such arguments.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  I'll bite. Where is this distinction? With references please. You keep saying things that are factually and demonstrably untrue: "if you send a letter through USPS standard mail".... but that isn't how mail works. Standard is for commercial packages. You keep saying things that are easy to see are false. In fact, I provided sources, including a law called the Mail classification (39 U.S.C. 3623), "The Postal Service shall maintain one or more classes of mail for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection" The whole idea from the beginning: The mail types you are talking about were specifically created to protect 4th amendment privacy protections. It was classed in to categories that were overall: individuals communicating = more protections... non-individuals doing non-correspondence stuff = less protections. (correspondence as understood: the exchange of ideas between people via the written word) In fact, I gave you a reading where the supreme court specifically said I had an expectation of privacy in my correspondence. I'm still waiting for your evidence that backs up your claim... or for that matter any references or outside sources that verify what you say: > If you send a letter through USPS standard mail, there is no expectation of privacy

mattkrause 7y ago

It's worth noting that "Standard Mail" has a specific meaning here, and refers to things sent in bulk, like newsletters and flyers. It is emphatically not the standard service you would use to mail your aunt a letter. That service is called First Class Mail, and is not to be opened.

txcwpalpha 7y ago
That's incorrect. "Standard mail" is the type of mail service used for anything that isn't one of the other named mail services, such as First Class or Priority Mail. Things sent in bulk, such as flyers, are an example of standard mail, but that does not preclude anyone from using standard mail to send a normal letter.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  Wow, you are stretching this into the realm of the unreal. It's like saying no one is precluded from buying military vehicles and driving them, therefore they are not for the military. This is what's needed for standard mail, and no, your letter to your friend will NOT qualify, when will you stop making things up or at least admitting to being wrong? > Standard Mail. Standard Mail usually consists of flyers, circulars, advertising, newsletters, bulletins, catalogs, or other printed pieces that are generally identical in content. Standard mail must be less than 16 ounces and must meet a minimum quantity of 200 pieces or 50 pounds of mail.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  I don’t think it is. Perhaps you have a lot more aunts than I do, but everything I can find suggests standard mail had a large minimum (200 pieces?) and preprocessing requirements. Here’s a page, from the post office itself: “At one time, it was called Third-Class Mail. Today, it's known as Standard Mail. In 2017, it will be called (USPS) Marketing Mail. The U.S. Postal Service has proposed a name change for Standard Mail to better signal to customers that this mail is used primarily to market a product or service.” https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/names-and-prices-they-are-changinÔÇÖ https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/names-and-prices-they-are-chang...