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Good article for me as someone who is entirely outside the news cycle about this. Pretty insane that you loose your job just because you have the wrong opinion

Good article for me as someone who is entirely outside the news cycle about this. Pretty insane that you loose your job just because you have the wrong opinions about something. I don't understand why not FSF and others simply stand behind him in events like these? This is pretty ridiculous and I hate this PC-elite that is currently ruling tech. I don't care about your code of conduct or what your thoughts are about different words. I just hope Stallman the best and that he should not back down to the kind of bullshit that's been thrown on him. That is simply letting them win. Fuck everyone that has the "you said something that I do not like, now you must resign"-mentality.

lukebitts 7y ago
Simplifying the issue this much to boil it down to "a difference in opinions" is a bit dishonest. It was a very specific opinion that crossed the line, it's not like he said he prefers chocolate to vanilla.
- ecmascript 7y ago
  That is what you think now, but just wait until chocolate vs vanilla is that opinion that you will get fired for. You never know. I would for example be glad to fire everyone that wanted him fired for the comments he made. If I get any sort of power, I will remember PC actions like this and utilize my power to battle it at any cost.
  - lukebitts 7y ago
    The slippery slope is a very tired argument. When people start getting fired for illegitimate reasons then I'll defend those people. The outcome of this specific situation seems rational, fair and expected. "Don't say controversial shit on the job" is a really low bar, even if what is controversial changes from time to time.
    - ecmascript 7y ago
      Nah man, the "dont say controversial shit on the job" is a very tired argument. The slippery slope is a real argument that is based in reality. Just look at events like this one and say to me with a straight face that is hasn't become 1000 times worse in the last couple of years. I say whatever I like and feel is fit for the current discussion. If you don't like that, you may choose not to hang with me. You decide for yourself, not for me. If you think your coworker is a shitty person because what their opinions are then quit the job, don't force others to do it in order for you to have a safe space. That is what I believe and fight for. People don't tend to realize that next time you may be the victim and then I'll defend you, the hate-crowd which you defend this time won't.
      - lukebitts 7y ago
        Here I am saying with a straight face: this hasn't become a 1000 times worse in the last couple of years. Do I have any data to back this up? No. Do you? If you do I'd like to see it, otherwise this is irrelevant to the discussion. You keep turning this discussion into something big, like this giant problem that society is facing or something and I just disagree it is that serious, that's all. Stallman was wrong and no matter how this was handled the outcome was acceptable (to me). If this happens to someone that isn't wrong then I'll be on your side next time. I won't defend someone who is wrong out of principle.
        ecmascript 7y ago
        All I have is a lot of anecdotal evidence. But it's evidence nonetheless. Stuff like this wouldn't simply not happen or noticed 10 years ago but today it is a big deal. Well, it's because I believe it is something big and a giant problem.
        lukebitts 7y ago
        Stuff like this has been happening since at least the 60s, 20 years ago it was happening to the dixxie chicks for being against the war, 30 years ago it was happening to gay people when their bosses found out, etc. This isn't new, it just gets more attention from the media. And anecdotal evidence is the opposite of evidence, it is meaningless. Your personal experience can be biased in so many ways I wouldn't draw any conclusions from it.
mr_overalls 7y ago
It's not just having the "wrong opinions about something." It's excusing the actions of a pedophile and human trafficker - a modern slavemaster, in case you're fooled by the modern euphemism.
- homonculus1 7y ago
  Please quote a full sentence wherein he excused the actions of Epstein.
  - okmokmz 7y ago
    It's pretty incredibly how many pro-pedophile and pro-rape comments there are on HN, although I'm not surprised as this isn't the first article I've experienced this in on this site 1. "The word 'assaulting presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article says no such thing. Only they had sex" -stallman First of all, having sex with someone unwilling is applying force. There was obviously an abuse of power at play, and to discount someone being raped because you don't think they got beaten or something similar and that somehow makes it not a sexual "assault" is twisted, disgusting, and again, rape apologism 2. "We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing" -stallman She said that she was raped. Saying that the "most plausible" scenario is that she was willing is clearly acting as a rape apologist. Not all woman will physically fight off the attacker when they are raped due to differences in power structure, age, physical strength, their ability to escape, etc. >Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it __rape__ in the Virgin Islands 3. "Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17" -stallman Again, rationalizing and acting as a rape apologist for his friend who raped children. It doesn't matter whether he thinks its absurd, if you fly someone into a country or location where they are a minor, legally cannot consent, and you have sex with them you are a rapist. I'm sure I'll get told how my liberal, PC nonsense needs to go find a safe place. I am generally the last person to support political correct nonsense that leads to censorship and other issues, but frankly what Stallman wrote was disgusting and clearly discounting rape survivors based on false assumptions and pedantry. I'm glad he lost his position and will not be able to spread such a toxic way of thinking. I'm also looking forward to all the downvotes from people supporting child rapists with no actual counterargument, as is standard on HN
criley2 7y ago
It's truly shocking that the rape-apologist crowd on the right has gotten to the point where being against rape-apologia is "PC", and that the culture of conservatism has moved to the point where mass rape-apologia is now the default position and all who disagree should be "fucked". I see it here, I hear it on Fox, I see it on twitter, I hear it from conservative sermons, and in basically every walk of life. Then again, I guess that's how most companies for all of human history have been run. Men will be men, and women serve them quietly or else. So I suppose I can understand why the progressive revolution to elevate women to a status of equality ("feminism") and expand that policy to include making it wrong to rape and abuse them even in private companies is so triggering and fundamentally unacceptable to conservatives. Not just tech though. Business, religion, politics, new: conservatives in all walks of life are engaging in mass rape apologia and going so far as to label all accusers and all of MeToo as "liberal" and "PC". What a cultural revolution on the right...
- ecmascript 7y ago
  Rape apologist? Wtf are you even going on about? Stallman never raped anyone afaik. But maybe you are the kind of person that thinks all men are rapists no matter what? I am neither a conservative or something else since I am not an american. I am just against your kind of thinking and want to battle it at any cost, it takes just one sentence to realize the crazy you believe in. I don't know where this crazy has come from, but it's like you were born on a different planet.
  - criley2 7y ago
    >"Rape apologist? Wtf are you even going on about? Stallman never raped anyone afaik" Please read and think before responding in anger. Rape apology is different than rape. For you to say "He's not a rape apologist, he never raped anyone" demonstrates basic ignorance to elementary english. Richard Stallman apologized for rapists and excused their rapes as "not rape" several times in his emails He described the underage victims of the most notorious American pedophile of the modern era (Epstein, who notoriously violently raped dozens of children) as "they must have consented, logically". That's apologia. I'm sorry your emotions regarding this situation caused you to fail to read and/or struggle with basic english. > But maybe you are the kind of person that thinks all men are rapists no matter what? And your radical right wing politics are laid bare. Why would you knee-jerk in a programmed conservative propaganda line? Who taught you to repeat that low-effort line? It's a very common line in radical far-right youtube/reddit, for example, but very rare outside of it. >"I am just against your kind of thinking and want to battle it at any cost, it takes just one sentence to realize the crazy you believe in." Just wow, talk about radicalization! You're nearly radicalized to violence already. Wow. Talking about "battling" me. I guess I should avoid public places where you live, eh? What an emotional, insulting and ultimately terribly inappropriate reply for you to write on Hacker News.
glofish 7y ago
He demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how the legal system works. IMHO he is not qualified to lead FSF.
c0ff33 7y ago
I think everyone is tired of these likely stories regarding Epstein, then RMS wanders in to defend a 70 year old pervert.

lukebitts 7y ago

Simplifying the issue this much to boil it down to "a difference in opinions" is a bit dishonest. It was a very specific opinion that crossed the line, it's not like he said he prefers chocolate to vanilla.

ecmascript 7y ago
That is what you think now, but just wait until chocolate vs vanilla is that opinion that you will get fired for. You never know. I would for example be glad to fire everyone that wanted him fired for the comments he made. If I get any sort of power, I will remember PC actions like this and utilize my power to battle it at any cost.
- lukebitts 7y ago
  The slippery slope is a very tired argument. When people start getting fired for illegitimate reasons then I'll defend those people. The outcome of this specific situation seems rational, fair and expected. "Don't say controversial shit on the job" is a really low bar, even if what is controversial changes from time to time.
  - ecmascript 7y ago
    Nah man, the "dont say controversial shit on the job" is a very tired argument. The slippery slope is a real argument that is based in reality. Just look at events like this one and say to me with a straight face that is hasn't become 1000 times worse in the last couple of years. I say whatever I like and feel is fit for the current discussion. If you don't like that, you may choose not to hang with me. You decide for yourself, not for me. If you think your coworker is a shitty person because what their opinions are then quit the job, don't force others to do it in order for you to have a safe space. That is what I believe and fight for. People don't tend to realize that next time you may be the victim and then I'll defend you, the hate-crowd which you defend this time won't.
    - lukebitts 7y ago
      Here I am saying with a straight face: this hasn't become a 1000 times worse in the last couple of years. Do I have any data to back this up? No. Do you? If you do I'd like to see it, otherwise this is irrelevant to the discussion. You keep turning this discussion into something big, like this giant problem that society is facing or something and I just disagree it is that serious, that's all. Stallman was wrong and no matter how this was handled the outcome was acceptable (to me). If this happens to someone that isn't wrong then I'll be on your side next time. I won't defend someone who is wrong out of principle.
      - ecmascript 7y ago
        All I have is a lot of anecdotal evidence. But it's evidence nonetheless. Stuff like this wouldn't simply not happen or noticed 10 years ago but today it is a big deal. Well, it's because I believe it is something big and a giant problem.
        lukebitts 7y ago
        Stuff like this has been happening since at least the 60s, 20 years ago it was happening to the dixxie chicks for being against the war, 30 years ago it was happening to gay people when their bosses found out, etc. This isn't new, it just gets more attention from the media. And anecdotal evidence is the opposite of evidence, it is meaningless. Your personal experience can be biased in so many ways I wouldn't draw any conclusions from it.

mr_overalls 7y ago

It's not just having the "wrong opinions about something." It's excusing the actions of a pedophile and human trafficker - a modern slavemaster, in case you're fooled by the modern euphemism.

homonculus1 7y ago
Please quote a full sentence wherein he excused the actions of Epstein.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  It's pretty incredibly how many pro-pedophile and pro-rape comments there are on HN, although I'm not surprised as this isn't the first article I've experienced this in on this site 1. "The word 'assaulting presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article says no such thing. Only they had sex" -stallman First of all, having sex with someone unwilling is applying force. There was obviously an abuse of power at play, and to discount someone being raped because you don't think they got beaten or something similar and that somehow makes it not a sexual "assault" is twisted, disgusting, and again, rape apologism 2. "We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing" -stallman She said that she was raped. Saying that the "most plausible" scenario is that she was willing is clearly acting as a rape apologist. Not all woman will physically fight off the attacker when they are raped due to differences in power structure, age, physical strength, their ability to escape, etc. >Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it __rape__ in the Virgin Islands 3. "Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17" -stallman Again, rationalizing and acting as a rape apologist for his friend who raped children. It doesn't matter whether he thinks its absurd, if you fly someone into a country or location where they are a minor, legally cannot consent, and you have sex with them you are a rapist. I'm sure I'll get told how my liberal, PC nonsense needs to go find a safe place. I am generally the last person to support political correct nonsense that leads to censorship and other issues, but frankly what Stallman wrote was disgusting and clearly discounting rape survivors based on false assumptions and pedantry. I'm glad he lost his position and will not be able to spread such a toxic way of thinking. I'm also looking forward to all the downvotes from people supporting child rapists with no actual counterargument, as is standard on HN

criley2 7y ago

It's truly shocking that the rape-apologist crowd on the right has gotten to the point where being against rape-apologia is "PC", and that the culture of conservatism has moved to the point where mass rape-apologia is now the default position and all who disagree should be "fucked". I see it here, I hear it on Fox, I see it on twitter, I hear it from conservative sermons, and in basically every walk of life. Then again, I guess that's how most companies for all of human history have been run. Men will be men, and women serve them quietly or else. So I suppose I can understand why the progressive revolution to elevate women to a status of equality ("feminism") and expand that policy to include making it wrong to rape and abuse them even in private companies is so triggering and fundamentally unacceptable to conservatives. Not just tech though. Business, religion, politics, new: conservatives in all walks of life are engaging in mass rape apologia and going so far as to label all accusers and all of MeToo as "liberal" and "PC". What a cultural revolution on the right...

ecmascript 7y ago
Rape apologist? Wtf are you even going on about? Stallman never raped anyone afaik. But maybe you are the kind of person that thinks all men are rapists no matter what? I am neither a conservative or something else since I am not an american. I am just against your kind of thinking and want to battle it at any cost, it takes just one sentence to realize the crazy you believe in. I don't know where this crazy has come from, but it's like you were born on a different planet.
- criley2 7y ago
  >"Rape apologist? Wtf are you even going on about? Stallman never raped anyone afaik" Please read and think before responding in anger. Rape apology is different than rape. For you to say "He's not a rape apologist, he never raped anyone" demonstrates basic ignorance to elementary english. Richard Stallman apologized for rapists and excused their rapes as "not rape" several times in his emails He described the underage victims of the most notorious American pedophile of the modern era (Epstein, who notoriously violently raped dozens of children) as "they must have consented, logically". That's apologia. I'm sorry your emotions regarding this situation caused you to fail to read and/or struggle with basic english. > But maybe you are the kind of person that thinks all men are rapists no matter what? And your radical right wing politics are laid bare. Why would you knee-jerk in a programmed conservative propaganda line? Who taught you to repeat that low-effort line? It's a very common line in radical far-right youtube/reddit, for example, but very rare outside of it. >"I am just against your kind of thinking and want to battle it at any cost, it takes just one sentence to realize the crazy you believe in." Just wow, talk about radicalization! You're nearly radicalized to violence already. Wow. Talking about "battling" me. I guess I should avoid public places where you live, eh? What an emotional, insulting and ultimately terribly inappropriate reply for you to write on Hacker News.

glofish 7y ago

He demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how the legal system works. IMHO he is not qualified to lead FSF.

c0ff33 7y ago

I think everyone is tired of these likely stories regarding Epstein, then RMS wanders in to defend a 70 year old pervert.