8 ms·

It's disappointing to read many of the comments on HN today. As we know, rms is a very dear person to most of the Computer Science and programmer community. T

by sgt 7y ago

It's disappointing to read many of the comments on HN today. As we know, rms is a very dear person to most of the Computer Science and programmer community. Through the years, he's said many shocking things. We've often disagreed with him. He's been extremely stubborn. At some points it's been comical. Yet we still see him as a technology treasure, and we should keep this in mind before judging him harshly based on a single e-mail. rms is actually reacting logically here, yet also emotionally as he's wanting to protect his friend - the late Marvin Minsky. Seemingly by letting go of common sense, and sure enough this is just cause for harsh criticism. But by simply removing a living legend from his position because he's not able to be politically correct, is far worse in my opinion. (I assume he was asked to leave). This same lack of political correctness also happens to be one of his strengths. It built his character. It's not perfect. I don't know what more to write at this point. It's ridiculous and turning into a witch hunt against someone we actually owe a great deal of gratitude.

lanevorockz 7y ago
It is completely stupid standard to only support people that think exactly like you. That's not how communities are run, that's how communities are ruined. So sad that young people completely ignorant about society and social interaction became so unreasonable that they want to punish every single living person.
- colechristensen 7y ago
  He was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Is that a matter of diverse thinking? If you think so, I'm interested to know your reasoning.
colechristensen 7y ago
He was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. That is what he was defending. The intellectual quibbles about this and that he was bringing up are irrelevant when faced with the above fact. That isn't about political correctness, it isn't a "witch hunt". RMS did something incredibly inappropriate in an incredibly inappropriate place and was fired. He deserved it.
- AlgorithmicTime 7y ago
  Minsky is accused, with no hard evidence. RMS is likely correct that Minsky did not know the girl's age or that she had been coerced. So, assuming Minsky did have sex with the girl, he had no way of knowing that what he was doing was illegal, since it was made to appear to him that this was not the case. That would make Minsky somewhat creepy for sleeping with someone so much younger than him, but not culpable morally. If Minsky didn't actually have sex with the girl, than he did nothing wrong at all.
- roenxi 7y ago
  Stallman's defence of Minsky wasn't in his capacity as the FSF President, and his resignation isn't the result of a thoughtful and considered process. This resignation is the result of a witch hunt. The thing about accusations is that being accused of something doesn't mean the thing happened. There is a pretty plausible line of evidence that Minsky kept his hands to himself when confronted by a 17 year old on a private island. It is an excellent time to try and defend a dead friend when such doubts are present. And as a particularly important point - there are no charges so horrible that people shouldn't be defended against them. That is one of the best principles we have in the Western intellectual tradition. "He's defending someone from something serious" is not a respectable counter; you should rethink your arguments.
  - colechristensen 7y ago
    The issue wasn't him defending a man, not really. The issue was him defending statutory rape by saying the victim would have seemed willing. The cirumstances around that hypothetical (17, 73, billionare's island) solidify the problem. It isn't intellectual disagreement. It's defending rape, real or imagined, by saying the victim seemed willing.
    - roenxi 7y ago
      If someone honestly thought, and had reason to think, that they were having sex with a willing 18 year old and it turned out days later that they had sex with an unwilling 17 year old then: (1) They have committed statutory rape (2) Their position is morally defensible, although a bit creepy for an old man. He probably didn't know she was 17. Why on earth would Minsky be risking the law by sleeping with a 17 year old girl when he could just sleep with an 18 or 19 year old? Presumably Epstein had all sorts on tap. It is very likely he wasn't told she was 17 and quite likely that if asked she had been coerced into lying. Stallman has a point here. And to top it off even if he is wrong it is not such a critical fact that he needs to resign over it. Even if I accept tomorrow that everything I typed today so far was wrong; this is still not an important enough point to resign over anything. It is a moral hypothetical. It is no relevant to my, or Stallman's, daily personal or professional life.
lukego 7y ago
I don't see it as a witch hunt so much as an intervention. He has done great things in the free software movement, history will thank him for it, but he shouldn't be working as a front-man while launching foot-seeking missiles. I have a soft spot for RMS like other people do but I don't want to donate to the FSF while he is talking this way as its president. Maybe he is also a victim of his success. Free software has come so far in the past few decades that it's not as important as other social issues in computing at this point in time.
roguecoder 7y ago
He is not acting logically, at all. Had he actually apologised he probably could have kept his job. Had he stopped being an asshole any of the times people tried to help him be less of an asshole he could have kept his job and maybe people would have defended him. Instead, he had been so awful for so long that when people came forward with his latest bullshit defending his friend over the child his friend committed statutory rape with, we all knew that it was in character for him. Imagining his (incorrect, head canon-fueled) pedanticism is “logical” is an insult to logic.
- atypicaluser 7y ago
  That's not what happened. And I doubt that any amount of apology, even if RMS was sincere, would have been sufficient--contrition is not punishment enough in today's Salem.
- balaksakrionon 7y ago
  Please note that Minksy is alleged to have had sex with the girl, and there is an eyewitness account stating that he declined to have sex. It's important to be as truthful as possible when speaking about this issue.

by sgt 7y ago

lanevorockz 7y ago

It is completely stupid standard to only support people that think exactly like you. That's not how communities are run, that's how communities are ruined. So sad that young people completely ignorant about society and social interaction became so unreasonable that they want to punish every single living person.

colechristensen 7y ago
He was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Is that a matter of diverse thinking? If you think so, I'm interested to know your reasoning.

colechristensen 7y ago

He was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. That is what he was defending. The intellectual quibbles about this and that he was bringing up are irrelevant when faced with the above fact. That isn't about political correctness, it isn't a "witch hunt". RMS did something incredibly inappropriate in an incredibly inappropriate place and was fired. He deserved it.

AlgorithmicTime 7y ago
Minsky is accused, with no hard evidence. RMS is likely correct that Minsky did not know the girl's age or that she had been coerced. So, assuming Minsky did have sex with the girl, he had no way of knowing that what he was doing was illegal, since it was made to appear to him that this was not the case. That would make Minsky somewhat creepy for sleeping with someone so much younger than him, but not culpable morally. If Minsky didn't actually have sex with the girl, than he did nothing wrong at all.
roenxi 7y ago
Stallman's defence of Minsky wasn't in his capacity as the FSF President, and his resignation isn't the result of a thoughtful and considered process. This resignation is the result of a witch hunt. The thing about accusations is that being accused of something doesn't mean the thing happened. There is a pretty plausible line of evidence that Minsky kept his hands to himself when confronted by a 17 year old on a private island. It is an excellent time to try and defend a dead friend when such doubts are present. And as a particularly important point - there are no charges so horrible that people shouldn't be defended against them. That is one of the best principles we have in the Western intellectual tradition. "He's defending someone from something serious" is not a respectable counter; you should rethink your arguments.
- colechristensen 7y ago
  The issue wasn't him defending a man, not really. The issue was him defending statutory rape by saying the victim would have seemed willing. The cirumstances around that hypothetical (17, 73, billionare's island) solidify the problem. It isn't intellectual disagreement. It's defending rape, real or imagined, by saying the victim seemed willing.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    If someone honestly thought, and had reason to think, that they were having sex with a willing 18 year old and it turned out days later that they had sex with an unwilling 17 year old then: (1) They have committed statutory rape (2) Their position is morally defensible, although a bit creepy for an old man. He probably didn't know she was 17. Why on earth would Minsky be risking the law by sleeping with a 17 year old girl when he could just sleep with an 18 or 19 year old? Presumably Epstein had all sorts on tap. It is very likely he wasn't told she was 17 and quite likely that if asked she had been coerced into lying. Stallman has a point here. And to top it off even if he is wrong it is not such a critical fact that he needs to resign over it. Even if I accept tomorrow that everything I typed today so far was wrong; this is still not an important enough point to resign over anything. It is a moral hypothetical. It is no relevant to my, or Stallman's, daily personal or professional life.

lukego 7y ago

I don't see it as a witch hunt so much as an intervention. He has done great things in the free software movement, history will thank him for it, but he shouldn't be working as a front-man while launching foot-seeking missiles. I have a soft spot for RMS like other people do but I don't want to donate to the FSF while he is talking this way as its president. Maybe he is also a victim of his success. Free software has come so far in the past few decades that it's not as important as other social issues in computing at this point in time.

roguecoder 7y ago

He is not acting logically, at all. Had he actually apologised he probably could have kept his job. Had he stopped being an asshole any of the times people tried to help him be less of an asshole he could have kept his job and maybe people would have defended him. Instead, he had been so awful for so long that when people came forward with his latest bullshit defending his friend over the child his friend committed statutory rape with, we all knew that it was in character for him. Imagining his (incorrect, head canon-fueled) pedanticism is “logical” is an insult to logic.

atypicaluser 7y ago
That's not what happened. And I doubt that any amount of apology, even if RMS was sincere, would have been sufficient--contrition is not punishment enough in today's Salem.
balaksakrionon 7y ago
Please note that Minksy is alleged to have had sex with the girl, and there is an eyewitness account stating that he declined to have sex. It's important to be as truthful as possible when speaking about this issue.