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There's something we have to accept here, that he could be right. It could be true. I'm not saying I agree with him or that I would have said the same things

There's something we have to accept here, that he could be right. It could be true. I'm not saying I agree with him or that I would have said the same things (I'm no Stallman, nobody cares about what I say anyway) but what he said was just the result of logical reasoning For example if you look at the titles it's easy to dismiss RMS as someone who favours rapists, but in the article he's always quoted in full and the things he said are a bit different For example quoting the VICE article > RMS: “it is morally absurd to define ‘rape’ in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.” And he's not entirely wrong. Rape in rape even in space at the age of 93.

ivanhoe 7y ago
Well, no, rape is not just a forceful rape, because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly, and thus it's up to adults to be responsible and avoid such encounters. Legally minors can't have a willing sex with an adult. So it's a rape and not alright even if both parties were fully willing, if nothing else then because the law says so. Somewhere else it might not be, but they were not somewhere else. Different cultures have different ideas on what is the appropriate age of consent, and the age is sort of "arbitrary" chosen, but it comes from the tradition and America is very puritan in pretty much everything else compared to Europe, so the same applies to this too. That's just the well established moral norm in the US society, so breaking it is obviously deeply anti-social and evil behavior, regardless of what age of consent is in my country or France or Brazil. Everyone involved was American, so even if you argue against the laws, still American moral and culture norms apply.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  > Well, no, rape is not just rape because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly And that's absurd. Do we all agree on this? for different reasons - 17 years 364 days is any different from 18 years old 0 days? - Stallman was talking (at the time) about consensual sex, not rape - Stallman said he found absurd that rape was defined in terms of `minor details` not that rape does not exists. He's not wrong. > still American moral and culture norms apply. In USA people should be horrified by Facebook spying kids[1], not about what Stallman thinks [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/
  - ivanhoe 7y ago
    It is, because one is illegal, the other is not. Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because you have to draw the line somewhere and it is drawn there. In my country the age of consent is extremely low, just 14. So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, and then breaking the law "a little" seems like no big deal. Moving it down to 13 feels crazy. But all the laws are like that, some red lines that it's not OK to cross, little or not. If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really?
    - lostjohnny 7y ago
      > It is, because one is illegal, the other is not Rape is always illegal. Sex is not. > Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because they're American. We start at 18, no problems here, no mass shootings, no one selling out to older people to buy alcohol for them. > So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? So by your logic 14 and 1 days is ok? Or, as Stallman said, rape cannot be defined by minor things such as the place where it happened or the age when it happened? > How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Completely. It's your country that allows older people have sex with baby girls, not mine. > Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, Don't assume we are all like you. I'm mentally used to being normal at 15-16... Because that's the age when people around me started, when I was their age. > But all the laws are like that Not even those about rape are all black and white. Even statutory rape is usually treated differently if the minor is just around the age of consent or not. > If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really? That's exactly what Stallman did. He never messed with minors. What upset you so much?
      - ivanhoe 7y ago
        > Rape is always illegal. - If person is 18 and sex is consensual it's not a rape. - If person is 17y 354 days old it doesn't matter what the minor person acted like, because law treats it as a non-consensual sex, so it's statutory rape. > So by your logic 14 and 1 days is ok? If both persons involved are living in Serbia it is OK. Unusual thing nowadays and to many here (me included) not seen as something morally positive, but some minorities have a different customs than mainstream Serbian culture, so it's fully legal. Most of Europe has the age of consent at 16, which in my own eyes makes more appropriate age than 14, but law is what matters. > That's exactly what Stallman did. He never messed with minors. No one said he did. But he, completely uncalled for, defended someone who did - who broke the law in a very obvious way - and he did it by trying to put the blame on a victim, although her being a minor makes her behavior completely irrelevant from the legal point of view. And that sucks.
- Konnstann 7y ago
  I think the poster you are replying to is saying that rape is rape not because of laws, but because of the nature of the act. A 17 year old who has sex with their 18 year old partner, willingly, will most likely not refer to that act as "rape", even though by law the 18 year old has committed that crime. Had they waited a month, it wouldn't be a crime, even though it is doubtful how much more "able to consent" the 17 year old would have been in that scenario.
  - ivanhoe 7y ago
    perhaps I misunderstood, but to me it sounded like the reasoning that it's not rape if it was a willing interaction. But it is the rape, because the law says that minors can't willingly get into it. It's like getting a little kid drunk and saying: well, I didn't force him to drink, he did it willingly. It's not acceptable. You as adult are required to know better.
    - lostjohnny 7y ago
      > but to me it sounded like the reasoning that it's not rape if it was a willing interaction My reasoning is: rape victims are victims regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, time and space. But it's not Twitter crowd that decides if it is rape or not.
      - ivanhoe 7y ago
        > But it's not Twitter crowd that decides if it is rape or not. Well, it's not Richard Stallman who decides either, but he tried to do exactly that... and that's why people are pissed at him
        lostjohnny 7y ago
        No, he didn't. He expressed an opinion as single individual person, he didn't ask for support or rioting against someone or something. And he didn't ask for nobody to be fired in the first place. > and that's why people are pissed at him No, they are pissed because people suck. They've been also pissed at Terry Davis, another troubled man (more troubled than RMS for sure), that didn't harm anybody in his life, except himself.
- mymythisisthis 7y ago
  Americans have discarded "Mens rea", guilty mind. If you go to a brothel and the owners tells you everyone is 17, and everyone looks 17, I think your do diligence is done.
justsaynono 7y ago
I don't have a context here but there is a legal defintion of 'stautory rape' that is different by country. So at least in that context rape is not rape. One culture see's an 18yr old having consentual sex with a 17yr old as rape. Another does not.

ivanhoe 7y ago

Well, no, rape is not just a forceful rape, because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly, and thus it's up to adults to be responsible and avoid such encounters. Legally minors can't have a willing sex with an adult. So it's a rape and not alright even if both parties were fully willing, if nothing else then because the law says so. Somewhere else it might not be, but they were not somewhere else. Different cultures have different ideas on what is the appropriate age of consent, and the age is sort of "arbitrary" chosen, but it comes from the tradition and America is very puritan in pretty much everything else compared to Europe, so the same applies to this too. That's just the well established moral norm in the US society, so breaking it is obviously deeply anti-social and evil behavior, regardless of what age of consent is in my country or France or Brazil. Everyone involved was American, so even if you argue against the laws, still American moral and culture norms apply.

lostjohnny 7y ago
> Well, no, rape is not just rape because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly And that's absurd. Do we all agree on this? for different reasons - 17 years 364 days is any different from 18 years old 0 days? - Stallman was talking (at the time) about consensual sex, not rape - Stallman said he found absurd that rape was defined in terms of `minor details` not that rape does not exists. He's not wrong. > still American moral and culture norms apply. In USA people should be horrified by Facebook spying kids[1], not about what Stallman thinks [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  It is, because one is illegal, the other is not. Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because you have to draw the line somewhere and it is drawn there. In my country the age of consent is extremely low, just 14. So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, and then breaking the law "a little" seems like no big deal. Moving it down to 13 feels crazy. But all the laws are like that, some red lines that it's not OK to cross, little or not. If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really?
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    > It is, because one is illegal, the other is not Rape is always illegal. Sex is not. > Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because they're American. We start at 18, no problems here, no mass shootings, no one selling out to older people to buy alcohol for them. > So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? So by your logic 14 and 1 days is ok? Or, as Stallman said, rape cannot be defined by minor things such as the place where it happened or the age when it happened? > How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Completely. It's your country that allows older people have sex with baby girls, not mine. > Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, Don't assume we are all like you. I'm mentally used to being normal at 15-16... Because that's the age when people around me started, when I was their age. > But all the laws are like that Not even those about rape are all black and white. Even statutory rape is usually treated differently if the minor is just around the age of consent or not. > If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really? That's exactly what Stallman did. He never messed with minors. What upset you so much?
    - ivanhoe 7y ago
      > Rape is always illegal. - If person is 18 and sex is consensual it's not a rape. - If person is 17y 354 days old it doesn't matter what the minor person acted like, because law treats it as a non-consensual sex, so it's statutory rape. > So by your logic 14 and 1 days is ok? If both persons involved are living in Serbia it is OK. Unusual thing nowadays and to many here (me included) not seen as something morally positive, but some minorities have a different customs than mainstream Serbian culture, so it's fully legal. Most of Europe has the age of consent at 16, which in my own eyes makes more appropriate age than 14, but law is what matters. > That's exactly what Stallman did. He never messed with minors. No one said he did. But he, completely uncalled for, defended someone who did - who broke the law in a very obvious way - and he did it by trying to put the blame on a victim, although her being a minor makes her behavior completely irrelevant from the legal point of view. And that sucks.
Konnstann 7y ago
I think the poster you are replying to is saying that rape is rape not because of laws, but because of the nature of the act. A 17 year old who has sex with their 18 year old partner, willingly, will most likely not refer to that act as "rape", even though by law the 18 year old has committed that crime. Had they waited a month, it wouldn't be a crime, even though it is doubtful how much more "able to consent" the 17 year old would have been in that scenario.
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  perhaps I misunderstood, but to me it sounded like the reasoning that it's not rape if it was a willing interaction. But it is the rape, because the law says that minors can't willingly get into it. It's like getting a little kid drunk and saying: well, I didn't force him to drink, he did it willingly. It's not acceptable. You as adult are required to know better.
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    > but to me it sounded like the reasoning that it's not rape if it was a willing interaction My reasoning is: rape victims are victims regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, time and space. But it's not Twitter crowd that decides if it is rape or not.
    - ivanhoe 7y ago
      > But it's not Twitter crowd that decides if it is rape or not. Well, it's not Richard Stallman who decides either, but he tried to do exactly that... and that's why people are pissed at him
      - lostjohnny 7y ago
        No, he didn't. He expressed an opinion as single individual person, he didn't ask for support or rioting against someone or something. And he didn't ask for nobody to be fired in the first place. > and that's why people are pissed at him No, they are pissed because people suck. They've been also pissed at Terry Davis, another troubled man (more troubled than RMS for sure), that didn't harm anybody in his life, except himself.
mymythisisthis 7y ago
Americans have discarded "Mens rea", guilty mind. If you go to a brothel and the owners tells you everyone is 17, and everyone looks 17, I think your do diligence is done.

justsaynono 7y ago

I don't have a context here but there is a legal defintion of 'stautory rape' that is different by country. So at least in that context rape is not rape. One culture see's an 18yr old having consentual sex with a 17yr old as rape. Another does not.