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I'm far from certain RMS's only offense was difficulty communicating, but the "evolution" of his statements as they traveled through the media was terrifying to

I'm far from certain RMS's only offense was difficulty communicating, but the "evolution" of his statements as they traveled through the media was terrifying to witness. Stallman: > the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Selam G. > [Stallman] says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. VICE: > Stallman insists that the “most plausible scenario” is that Epstein’s underage victims were “entirely willing” while being trafficked. New York Post: > MIT scientist says Epstein victim Virginia Giuffre was ‘entirely willing’

lostjohnny 7y ago
There's something we have to accept here, that he could be right. It could be true. I'm not saying I agree with him or that I would have said the same things (I'm no Stallman, nobody cares about what I say anyway) but what he said was just the result of logical reasoning For example if you look at the titles it's easy to dismiss RMS as someone who favours rapists, but in the article he's always quoted in full and the things he said are a bit different For example quoting the VICE article > RMS: “it is morally absurd to define ‘rape’ in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.” And he's not entirely wrong. Rape in rape even in space at the age of 93.
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  Well, no, rape is not just a forceful rape, because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly, and thus it's up to adults to be responsible and avoid such encounters. Legally minors can't have a willing sex with an adult. So it's a rape and not alright even if both parties were fully willing, if nothing else then because the law says so. Somewhere else it might not be, but they were not somewhere else. Different cultures have different ideas on what is the appropriate age of consent, and the age is sort of "arbitrary" chosen, but it comes from the tradition and America is very puritan in pretty much everything else compared to Europe, so the same applies to this too. That's just the well established moral norm in the US society, so breaking it is obviously deeply anti-social and evil behavior, regardless of what age of consent is in my country or France or Brazil. Everyone involved was American, so even if you argue against the laws, still American moral and culture norms apply.
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    > Well, no, rape is not just rape because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly And that's absurd. Do we all agree on this? for different reasons - 17 years 364 days is any different from 18 years old 0 days? - Stallman was talking (at the time) about consensual sex, not rape - Stallman said he found absurd that rape was defined in terms of `minor details` not that rape does not exists. He's not wrong. > still American moral and culture norms apply. In USA people should be horrified by Facebook spying kids[1], not about what Stallman thinks [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/
    - ivanhoe 7y ago
      It is, because one is illegal, the other is not. Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because you have to draw the line somewhere and it is drawn there. In my country the age of consent is extremely low, just 14. So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, and then breaking the law "a little" seems like no big deal. Moving it down to 13 feels crazy. But all the laws are like that, some red lines that it's not OK to cross, little or not. If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really?
      - lostjohnny 7y ago
        > It is, because one is illegal, the other is not Rape is always illegal. Sex is not. > Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because they're American. We start at 18, no problems here, no mass shootings, no one selling out to older people to buy alcohol for them. > So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? So by your logic 14 and 1 days is ok? Or, as Stallman said, rape cannot be defined by minor things such as the place where it happened or the age when it happened? > How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Completely. It's your country that allows older people have sex with baby girls, not mine. > Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, Don't assume we are all like you. I'm mentally used to being normal at 15-16... Because that's the age when people around me started, when I was their age. > But all the laws are like that Not even those about rape are all black and white. Even statutory rape is usually treated differently if the minor is just around the age of consent or not. > If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really? That's exactly what Stallman did. He never messed with minors. What upset you so much?
- justsaynono 7y ago
  I don't have a context here but there is a legal defintion of 'stautory rape' that is different by country. So at least in that context rape is not rape. One culture see's an 18yr old having consentual sex with a 17yr old as rape. Another does not.
enkid 7y ago
I don't have the context of the original quote, but from what you wrote, none of those are inaccurate. The most common problem with human trafficking is that the trafficcer places the victim in a position where they are or appear to be willing. Normally, they would not be trying to escape every moment they have. The misunderstanding of this is why people don't like the comment.
- smallmancontrov 7y ago
  So what you're saying is that the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing but that she was coerced into doing so? I tend to agree, and I suspect most people would, including Stallman.
  - crispyambulance 7y ago
    > the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing but that she was coerced into doing so? What's missing here is some consideration about the judgement of Minsky. He was a smart and powerful person with a long life of experience. He has absolutely no excuse for what he did and he knew what he was doing. Nor does RMS have an excuse for what he said and now we're finally seeing that the aloof misanthrope schtick only goes so far. Good riddance.
    - smallmancontrov 7y ago
      Agreed 100% regarding Minsky, but RMS wasn't defending Minsky's (alleged) creepery in an absolute sense, he was arguing against escalating one allegation against Minsky into another.
lanevorockz 7y ago
VICE is literally a vice, it's a bad company giving moral drugs to self entitled people that see themselves as superior to anyone that thinks differently.
Cacti 7y ago
you don’t need to follow the chain, his first comment is bad enough: > the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. stop. stop and think about this. you’re telling me that some random person on the internet can sit there and claim, with a straight face, decades removed from the event, and completely unaware of what went down in that room, that “the most plausible scenario” is that she was willing? are you kidding me? how do you know? he wasn’t there. he doesn’t know this person. and why is this so plausible? on what actual basis here is he making this statement? oh, that’s right, nothing except his own prejudices. he doesn’t know a damned thing about what happened in that room, and for him to jump to the conclusion that, well obviously, she wanted it, is freaking absurd. he entirely deserves to get pilloried for this statement alone. he had no business jumping into this discussion, he has absolutely no basis on which to make his judgements except his high opinion of himself, and to go out of his way to engage in a public debate about such a highly sensitive subject when he knows jack squat about it shows an incredible lack of judgement. the media didn’t do this to RMS, he did.
- smallmancontrov 7y ago
  > you’re telling me that some random person on the internet can sit there and claim, with a straight face, decades removed from the event, and completely unaware of what went down in that room, that “the most plausible scenario” is that she was willing? No, Stallman did not say that. Selam G and the media said he said it, but he did not say it. Not in spirit, not in words.
- pygy_ 7y ago
  I understood this as "the most plausible [given what I know of Minsky]". Also, he doesn't say that she wanted it, but that she might have lied about whether or not she was there willingly (possibly being coerced into lying). Paraphrasing "The most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing": "I have a hard time imagining my late friend willingly raping someone." Not that I think that, even in that scenario, Minsky would have displayed sound judgement by having sex with her (especially given Epstein's reputation and past conviction).
- roenxi 7y ago
haspok 7y ago
Tech Chrunch: > Computer scientist Richard Stallmann, who defended Jeffrey Epstein...

lostjohnny 7y ago

There's something we have to accept here, that he could be right. It could be true. I'm not saying I agree with him or that I would have said the same things (I'm no Stallman, nobody cares about what I say anyway) but what he said was just the result of logical reasoning For example if you look at the titles it's easy to dismiss RMS as someone who favours rapists, but in the article he's always quoted in full and the things he said are a bit different For example quoting the VICE article > RMS: “it is morally absurd to define ‘rape’ in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.” And he's not entirely wrong. Rape in rape even in space at the age of 93.

ivanhoe 7y ago
Well, no, rape is not just a forceful rape, because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly, and thus it's up to adults to be responsible and avoid such encounters. Legally minors can't have a willing sex with an adult. So it's a rape and not alright even if both parties were fully willing, if nothing else then because the law says so. Somewhere else it might not be, but they were not somewhere else. Different cultures have different ideas on what is the appropriate age of consent, and the age is sort of "arbitrary" chosen, but it comes from the tradition and America is very puritan in pretty much everything else compared to Europe, so the same applies to this too. That's just the well established moral norm in the US society, so breaking it is obviously deeply anti-social and evil behavior, regardless of what age of consent is in my country or France or Brazil. Everyone involved was American, so even if you argue against the laws, still American moral and culture norms apply.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  > Well, no, rape is not just rape because the law says that minors up to some age are not capable of making decisions on who they have sex with willingly And that's absurd. Do we all agree on this? for different reasons - 17 years 364 days is any different from 18 years old 0 days? - Stallman was talking (at the time) about consensual sex, not rape - Stallman said he found absurd that rape was defined in terms of `minor details` not that rape does not exists. He's not wrong. > still American moral and culture norms apply. In USA people should be horrified by Facebook spying kids[1], not about what Stallman thinks [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/
  - ivanhoe 7y ago
    It is, because one is illegal, the other is not. Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because you have to draw the line somewhere and it is drawn there. In my country the age of consent is extremely low, just 14. So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, and then breaking the law "a little" seems like no big deal. Moving it down to 13 feels crazy. But all the laws are like that, some red lines that it's not OK to cross, little or not. If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really?
    - lostjohnny 7y ago
      > It is, because one is illegal, the other is not Rape is always illegal. Sex is not. > Just like drinking with 21 and 20.99 years is not the same, because they're American. We start at 18, no problems here, no mass shootings, no one selling out to older people to buy alcohol for them. > So by applying your logic to that, 13 and 364 days would be OK too? So by your logic 14 and 1 days is ok? Or, as Stallman said, rape cannot be defined by minor things such as the place where it happened or the age when it happened? > How do you feel about that, not entirely comfortable right? Completely. It's your country that allows older people have sex with baby girls, not mine. > Because you're used mentally to 18 years being the line, Don't assume we are all like you. I'm mentally used to being normal at 15-16... Because that's the age when people around me started, when I was their age. > But all the laws are like that Not even those about rape are all black and white. Even statutory rape is usually treated differently if the minor is just around the age of consent or not. > If 18 is the legal age, you just don't mess with minors, how complicated is that really? That's exactly what Stallman did. He never messed with minors. What upset you so much?
justsaynono 7y ago
I don't have a context here but there is a legal defintion of 'stautory rape' that is different by country. So at least in that context rape is not rape. One culture see's an 18yr old having consentual sex with a 17yr old as rape. Another does not.

enkid 7y ago

I don't have the context of the original quote, but from what you wrote, none of those are inaccurate. The most common problem with human trafficking is that the trafficcer places the victim in a position where they are or appear to be willing. Normally, they would not be trying to escape every moment they have. The misunderstanding of this is why people don't like the comment.

smallmancontrov 7y ago
So what you're saying is that the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing but that she was coerced into doing so? I tend to agree, and I suspect most people would, including Stallman.
- crispyambulance 7y ago
  > the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing but that she was coerced into doing so? What's missing here is some consideration about the judgement of Minsky. He was a smart and powerful person with a long life of experience. He has absolutely no excuse for what he did and he knew what he was doing. Nor does RMS have an excuse for what he said and now we're finally seeing that the aloof misanthrope schtick only goes so far. Good riddance.
  - smallmancontrov 7y ago
    Agreed 100% regarding Minsky, but RMS wasn't defending Minsky's (alleged) creepery in an absolute sense, he was arguing against escalating one allegation against Minsky into another.

lanevorockz 7y ago

VICE is literally a vice, it's a bad company giving moral drugs to self entitled people that see themselves as superior to anyone that thinks differently.

Cacti 7y ago

you don’t need to follow the chain, his first comment is bad enough: > the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. stop. stop and think about this. you’re telling me that some random person on the internet can sit there and claim, with a straight face, decades removed from the event, and completely unaware of what went down in that room, that “the most plausible scenario” is that she was willing? are you kidding me? how do you know? he wasn’t there. he doesn’t know this person. and why is this so plausible? on what actual basis here is he making this statement? oh, that’s right, nothing except his own prejudices. he doesn’t know a damned thing about what happened in that room, and for him to jump to the conclusion that, well obviously, she wanted it, is freaking absurd. he entirely deserves to get pilloried for this statement alone. he had no business jumping into this discussion, he has absolutely no basis on which to make his judgements except his high opinion of himself, and to go out of his way to engage in a public debate about such a highly sensitive subject when he knows jack squat about it shows an incredible lack of judgement. the media didn’t do this to RMS, he did.

smallmancontrov 7y ago
> you’re telling me that some random person on the internet can sit there and claim, with a straight face, decades removed from the event, and completely unaware of what went down in that room, that “the most plausible scenario” is that she was willing? No, Stallman did not say that. Selam G and the media said he said it, but he did not say it. Not in spirit, not in words.
pygy_ 7y ago
I understood this as "the most plausible [given what I know of Minsky]". Also, he doesn't say that she wanted it, but that she might have lied about whether or not she was there willingly (possibly being coerced into lying). Paraphrasing "The most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing": "I have a hard time imagining my late friend willingly raping someone." Not that I think that, even in that scenario, Minsky would have displayed sound judgement by having sex with her (especially given Epstein's reputation and past conviction).
roenxi 7y ago

haspok 7y ago

Tech Chrunch: > Computer scientist Richard Stallmann, who defended Jeffrey Epstein...