9 ms·

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]

by dexen 7y ago

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold contributions above outraged crowd's size. -- [1] "Stallman was right", countless comments here on HN, on LWN, and all over the internet [2] "Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs", http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

sascha_sl 7y ago
not everything is a psyop, sometimes people just want idiots to stop their toxic bs
scalanewaccount 7y ago
How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this? Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you practices as long as Trump is the guy on the other side. No proofs, no actual statements, just CNN soundbytes and orange man bad, impich nao. Remember you reap what you sow.
- sascha_sl 7y ago
  >How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this? How did you manage to make this about trump what the fuck
- dexen 7y ago
  >How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this Good point. I intended it merely as emphasis to the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish point, but apparently it ended up being more of a red herring...? I'll take extra care the next time. >Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you Don't worry, this forum isn't entirely a single-minded and single-channel tribe. Albeit let's not detract further with risky subjects, shall we? :-)
pjc50 7y ago
RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution. They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors. Linus eventually realised that his abuse of contributors was a negative contribution and agreed to change. RMS has .. not got to that point.
- dexen 7y ago
  >RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution. I've seen the accusations against RMS. I've seen the RMS emails in the thread[1]. RMS' emails bemoan wishy-washy reporting, and are centered around calls for clarity and precision. With some insensitive words. In response we got even more wishy-washy reporting - weasel words were used, misleading summaries instead of quotations[2], and focus was placed on how people felt outraged. People who weren't part of the discussion. This isn't the way to build great software. This is tribes warring on social media. >They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors Riddle me this: which drives away contributors - private email threads, or social media wars of attrition? Is my judgement right? Maybe I am missing something big, that happens. Nonetheless I decide to side with somebody I've seen reliably exhibit the same character over decades, rather than with out-of-character accusations. I decide to side with somebody who delivered great projects[3] over decades - rather than with a social media conflict. -- [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html#document/p1 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d5a4dz/richard_stallman_resigns_from_mit_due_to_pressure/f0l50w4/?context=2 https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d5a4dz/richard_stall... [3] notably RMS delivered not only software projects, but also organizational/legal projects, and social/cultural projects
  - lucideer 7y ago
    > RMS' emails bemoan wishy-washy reporting, and are centered around calls for clarity and precision. With some insensitive words. The "insensitive words" seem the issue for me, from my reading of his emails, and referring to them as just that seems an understatement. > The announcement [...] does injustice to Marvin Minsky. The injustice is the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault" is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation; [...] The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein's harem. [...] The word "assault" presumes that he applied force [...] but the article says no such thing. Yes the above words are insensitive (calling such accusations "vague and slippery" by definition does a massive injustice to anyone who's ever suffered such a fate), but much more objectively, they're also blindly or wilfully false. The article he links as a reference opens with the following words: > A victim of billionaire Jeffrey Epstein testified that she was forced to have sex with MIT professor Marvin Minsky There is no more direct contradiction of RMS' statements than the opening words of the article he links in his email. There's absolutely no question of his communication on this being appropriate.
nguoi 7y ago
This has nothing to do with 'SJWs' unless you're implying that 'statutory rape is bad' is a political stance of the far-left. I think it's much more likely you're clinging to buzzwords.
- TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
  But his argument wasn't 'statutory rape isn't bad,' his argument was 'statutory rape isn't always assault, and saying it is unnecessarily widens the definition of assault.' The widespread, seemingly willful misinterpretation of his statements does make it a SJW witch-hunt imo.
- dexen 7y ago
  >This has nothing to do with 'SJWs' >I think it's much more likely you're clinging to buzzwords. The ESR's article[1] you are referencing is so much more than just headline. I encourage you to read it, and try to re-construct the events, the thoughts, and the emotions that led ESR to post a piece that explosive. The comment section alone spans some 760 responses over four years, with people chipping in with their observations from the trenches and with their shattered dreams. While writing, ESR was in communication with several victims of then-recent social media mobs, and conveyed their woes. The two bits of article that stood out to me: >The hacker culture’s norm about inclusion is clear: >anybody who can pull the freight is welcome and >We must (...) >learn to recognize their thought-stopping jargon and kafkatraps -- [1] "Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs", http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918
- KaiserPro 7y ago
  Indeed. Its not like he has decided to keep these opinions to himself. He has emailed a work mailing-list to spout this rubbish. If I had posted this to my work mailing-list: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... then I'd have been bollocked. If I had a history of posting politics defending something that is pretty indefensible (especially in a role where I would be in loco parentis for minors) I would have limited sympathy if this was expressed privately[1], but its not, its broadcast to all and sundry. [1] but his position is frankly wrong. Its a big ask to justify sexual slavery.
big_chungus 7y ago
The best example of this is the Ruby lang thread wrt the proposed code of conduct [0]. A "social justice warrior" who never contributed showed up, Coraline Emkhe, popped up and demanded Ruby adopt it. She has been ding this for years, going around to projects with which she is not involved and pressuring them to adopt a "contributor covenant" written by her which reflects her values first and foremost, and not necessarily those of the project.
- iliketocomplain 7y ago
  Let's stick to the facts: he/him.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    Wait what?
    - iliketocomplain 7y ago
      He's a man. Shouldn't come as a surprise if you look at any pic of him. Edit for clarity: Talking about the author of this dystopian contributor covenant.
      - big_chungus 7y ago
        Ok, I can't tell at this point. Too ambiguous for me to know for sure (though looks decidedly masculine); I just looked, and apparently this person is a transsexual? Lord but this is confusing.
        davinic 7y ago
        It's not confusing. She is a woman, and iliketocomplain is a transphobe. Edit: a cowardly transphobe, who created an alt account hours ago to post their garbage.
        7y ago
lame88 7y ago
Using the term SJW alone destroys the credibility of any substantial claim using it. If you really want to persuade people, find a term that isn’t mainly employed as incendiary jargon of far-right ideology to categorically dismiss anyone left of their viewpoint.
- dexen 7y ago
  The concern has already been raised by sibling comment[0], so cross-posting my response. Let the last line quoted from article be a reply to you. >This has nothing to do with 'SJWs' >I think it's much more likely you're clinging to buzzwords. The ESR's article[1] you are referencing is so much more than just headline. I encourage you to read it, and try to re-construct the events, the thoughts, and the emotions that led ESR to post a piece that explosive. The comment section alone spans some 760 responses over four years, with people chipping in with their observations from the trenches and with their shattered dreams. While writing, ESR was in communication with several victims of then-recent social media mobs, and conveyed their woes. The two bits of article that stood out to me: >The hacker culture’s norm about inclusion is clear: >anybody who can pull the freight is welcome and >We must (...) >learn to recognize their thought-stopping jargon and kafkatraps -- [1] "Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs", http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20993761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20993761
  - nguoi 7y ago
    I did read it, much as I read the guidelines for this website. SJW is not an antonym of hacker. Whatever hacker culture's norm is, breaking work relationships and censorship for someone's words or actions is much older than hacker culture and is done my many more groups than 2010s American Democrat voters. Consider 1984, or Mary Whitehouse.
  - lame88 7y ago
    I'm well aware of the problems people like antirez face from others who deem themselves the moral/language internet police, and it is definitely an ongoing problem, but none of this is limited to the tech community, and I'm not really convinced that situations like those are sufficiently comparable to what we see with Stallman here.

by dexen 7y ago

sascha_sl 7y ago

not everything is a psyop, sometimes people just want idiots to stop their toxic bs

scalanewaccount 7y ago

How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this? Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you practices as long as Trump is the guy on the other side. No proofs, no actual statements, just CNN soundbytes and orange man bad, impich nao. Remember you reap what you sow.

sascha_sl 7y ago
>How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this? How did you manage to make this about trump what the fuck
dexen 7y ago
>How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this Good point. I intended it merely as emphasis to the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish point, but apparently it ended up being more of a red herring...? I'll take extra care the next time. >Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you Don't worry, this forum isn't entirely a single-minded and single-channel tribe. Albeit let's not detract further with risky subjects, shall we? :-)

pjc50 7y ago

RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution. They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors. Linus eventually realised that his abuse of contributors was a negative contribution and agreed to change. RMS has .. not got to that point.

dexen 7y ago
>RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution. I've seen the accusations against RMS. I've seen the RMS emails in the thread[1]. RMS' emails bemoan wishy-washy reporting, and are centered around calls for clarity and precision. With some insensitive words. In response we got even more wishy-washy reporting - weasel words were used, misleading summaries instead of quotations[2], and focus was placed on how people felt outraged. People who weren't part of the discussion. This isn't the way to build great software. This is tribes warring on social media. >They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors Riddle me this: which drives away contributors - private email threads, or social media wars of attrition? Is my judgement right? Maybe I am missing something big, that happens. Nonetheless I decide to side with somebody I've seen reliably exhibit the same character over decades, rather than with out-of-character accusations. I decide to side with somebody who delivered great projects[3] over decades - rather than with a social media conflict. -- [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html#document/p1 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d5a4dz/richard_stallman_resigns_from_mit_due_to_pressure/f0l50w4/?context=2 https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d5a4dz/richard_stall... [3] notably RMS delivered not only software projects, but also organizational/legal projects, and social/cultural projects
- lucideer 7y ago
  > RMS' emails bemoan wishy-washy reporting, and are centered around calls for clarity and precision. With some insensitive words. The "insensitive words" seem the issue for me, from my reading of his emails, and referring to them as just that seems an understatement. > The announcement [...] does injustice to Marvin Minsky. The injustice is the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault" is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation; [...] The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein's harem. [...] The word "assault" presumes that he applied force [...] but the article says no such thing. Yes the above words are insensitive (calling such accusations "vague and slippery" by definition does a massive injustice to anyone who's ever suffered such a fate), but much more objectively, they're also blindly or wilfully false. The article he links as a reference opens with the following words: > A victim of billionaire Jeffrey Epstein testified that she was forced to have sex with MIT professor Marvin Minsky There is no more direct contradiction of RMS' statements than the opening words of the article he links in his email. There's absolutely no question of his communication on this being appropriate.

nguoi 7y ago

This has nothing to do with 'SJWs' unless you're implying that 'statutory rape is bad' is a political stance of the far-left. I think it's much more likely you're clinging to buzzwords.

TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
But his argument wasn't 'statutory rape isn't bad,' his argument was 'statutory rape isn't always assault, and saying it is unnecessarily widens the definition of assault.' The widespread, seemingly willful misinterpretation of his statements does make it a SJW witch-hunt imo.
dexen 7y ago
>This has nothing to do with 'SJWs' >I think it's much more likely you're clinging to buzzwords. The ESR's article[1] you are referencing is so much more than just headline. I encourage you to read it, and try to re-construct the events, the thoughts, and the emotions that led ESR to post a piece that explosive. The comment section alone spans some 760 responses over four years, with people chipping in with their observations from the trenches and with their shattered dreams. While writing, ESR was in communication with several victims of then-recent social media mobs, and conveyed their woes. The two bits of article that stood out to me: >The hacker culture’s norm about inclusion is clear: >anybody who can pull the freight is welcome and >We must (...) >learn to recognize their thought-stopping jargon and kafkatraps -- [1] "Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs", http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918
KaiserPro 7y ago
Indeed. Its not like he has decided to keep these opinions to himself. He has emailed a work mailing-list to spout this rubbish. If I had posted this to my work mailing-list: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... then I'd have been bollocked. If I had a history of posting politics defending something that is pretty indefensible (especially in a role where I would be in loco parentis for minors) I would have limited sympathy if this was expressed privately[1], but its not, its broadcast to all and sundry. [1] but his position is frankly wrong. Its a big ask to justify sexual slavery.

big_chungus 7y ago

The best example of this is the Ruby lang thread wrt the proposed code of conduct [0]. A "social justice warrior" who never contributed showed up, Coraline Emkhe, popped up and demanded Ruby adopt it. She has been ding this for years, going around to projects with which she is not involved and pressuring them to adopt a "contributor covenant" written by her which reflects her values first and foremost, and not necessarily those of the project.

iliketocomplain 7y ago
Let's stick to the facts: he/him.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  Wait what?
  - iliketocomplain 7y ago
    He's a man. Shouldn't come as a surprise if you look at any pic of him. Edit for clarity: Talking about the author of this dystopian contributor covenant.
    - big_chungus 7y ago
      Ok, I can't tell at this point. Too ambiguous for me to know for sure (though looks decidedly masculine); I just looked, and apparently this person is a transsexual? Lord but this is confusing.
      - davinic 7y ago
        It's not confusing. She is a woman, and iliketocomplain is a transphobe. Edit: a cowardly transphobe, who created an alt account hours ago to post their garbage.
        7y ago

lame88 7y ago

Using the term SJW alone destroys the credibility of any substantial claim using it. If you really want to persuade people, find a term that isn’t mainly employed as incendiary jargon of far-right ideology to categorically dismiss anyone left of their viewpoint.

dexen 7y ago
The concern has already been raised by sibling comment[0], so cross-posting my response. Let the last line quoted from article be a reply to you. >This has nothing to do with 'SJWs' >I think it's much more likely you're clinging to buzzwords. The ESR's article[1] you are referencing is so much more than just headline. I encourage you to read it, and try to re-construct the events, the thoughts, and the emotions that led ESR to post a piece that explosive. The comment section alone spans some 760 responses over four years, with people chipping in with their observations from the trenches and with their shattered dreams. While writing, ESR was in communication with several victims of then-recent social media mobs, and conveyed their woes. The two bits of article that stood out to me: >The hacker culture’s norm about inclusion is clear: >anybody who can pull the freight is welcome and >We must (...) >learn to recognize their thought-stopping jargon and kafkatraps -- [1] "Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs", http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20993761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20993761
- nguoi 7y ago
  I did read it, much as I read the guidelines for this website. SJW is not an antonym of hacker. Whatever hacker culture's norm is, breaking work relationships and censorship for someone's words or actions is much older than hacker culture and is done my many more groups than 2010s American Democrat voters. Consider 1984, or Mary Whitehouse.
- lame88 7y ago
  I'm well aware of the problems people like antirez face from others who deem themselves the moral/language internet police, and it is definitely an ongoing problem, but none of this is limited to the tech community, and I'm not really convinced that situations like those are sufficiently comparable to what we see with Stallman here.