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> Does that confirm that he indeed said it? Well, no? Surely the coercion bit is the important bit? It's a bit odd that he had to "learn" that sex could bring

> Does that confirm that he indeed said it? Well, no? Surely the coercion bit is the important bit? It's a bit odd that he had to "learn" that sex could bring psychological harm to children, but he's basically saying that adults should not have sex with children.

input_sh 7y ago
> Surely the coercion bit is the important bit? Absolutely not. The entire point why paedophilia is considered an awful act is because a child is not mature enough to give consent for such action. Since children (and I repeat, CHILDREN) are unable to give a proper consent, any sort of a sexual action with them is considered as rape. > ...but he's basically saying that adults should not have sex with children. No, he specifically disagrees with the age of consent: > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29 https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20... In case you're curious, age of consent is mostly 14 to 18 around the world (with some exceptions), and 16 to 18 in the US, depending on the state. He does not provide us with a number, but if you ask me, it's a really weird hill to die on.
- scholia 7y ago
  From Wikipedia: So, as of May 2019, in the 34 states that have set a marriage age by statute, the lower minimum marriage age when all exceptions are taken into account, are: 2 states have a minimum age of 14: Alaska and North Carolina. 4 states have a minimum age of 15. 20 states have a minimum age of 16. 8 states have a minimum age of 17. In Massachusetts the general marriage age is 18, but children may be married with judicial consent with no minimum age limit. In the absence of any statutory minimum age, one opinion is that the minimum common law marriageable age of 12 for girls and 14 for boys may still apply. Unlike many other states, in Massachusetts a child's marriage does not automatically emancipate the minor, or increase his or her legal rights beyond allowing the minor to consent to certain medical treatments. -- End of quotation -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_age_in_the_United_States#Underage_marriage_age_by_jurisdiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_age_in_the_United_Sta... I'm not an American, so I don't understand why you have not fixed this obvious problem.
  - input_sh 7y ago
    Those exceptions are related to the age of the other person. So, for example, in a place where the age of consent is at 18, an 18 year old could have sex with a 16 year old without being considered a paedophile, while a 25 year old could not have sex with anyone below 18. There's nothing about those exceptions that's US-specific. The number I've posted are the official ones if the other person is above 20-something, while the numbers that you've posted are applicable when both parties are similar in age.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      > So, for example, in a place where the age of consent is at 18, an 18 year old could have sex with a 16 year old without being considered a paedophile, while a 25 year old could not have sex with anyone below 18. That doesn't sound correct to me. As I understand it, an adult (18 and above in the US) cannot legally have sex with someone under the age of consent. So if the age of consent is 18, and an 18 year old has sex with a 16 year old, that is considered statutory rape or child sexual abuse. A quick Wikipedia skim[0] seems to agree with me. Perhaps you meant to say "if the age of consent is 16"? Even then, that doesn't sound right. In that case, both an 18 year old and 25 year old could legally have sex with a 16 year old. There do appear to be some exceptions in some parts of the world where, as you say, there are exceptions for people of similar age. So in some places, an 18 year old might not be prosecuted for having sex with a 16 or 17 year old if the age of consent is 18. But these seem to be few and far between. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
      - input_sh 7y ago
        > As I understand it, an adult (18 and above in the US) cannot legally have sex with someone under the age of consent. So if the age of consent is 18, and an 18 year old has sex with a 16 year old, that is considered statutory rape or child sexual abuse. That's a pretty common mistake to make. There's two different sets of rules that kinda blend together when you try to reduce age of consent to a single digit. Wikipedia indeed agrees with me: > In most states there is not a single age in which a person may consent, but rather consent varies depending upon the minimum age of the younger party, the minimum age of the older party, or the differences in age. Some states have a single age of consent. Thirty U.S. states have age gap laws which make sexual activity legal if the ages of both participants are close to one another, and these laws are often referred to as "Romeo and Juliet laws". Other states have measures which reduce penalties if the two parties are close in age, and others provide an affirmative defense if the two parties are close in age. Even though state laws regarding the general age of consent and age gap laws differ, it is common for people in the United States to assume that sexual activity with someone under 18 is statutory rape. Paragraph taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#State_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_... In any case, we've deviated from the topic far enough. I'd argue that it's a weird thing to advocate for lowering of the age of consent. At best, I'm willing to agree that RMS uses terms like an edgy teen. Minors sext each other, therefore, we should make child pornography legal (seriously, I'm not making this up: https://stallman.org/archives/2012-jul-oct.html#15_September_2012_%28Censorship_of_child_pornography%29 https://stallman.org/archives/2012-jul-oct.html#15_September...). Age of consent needs to be lowered, therefore paedophilia should become legal. He talks about the edge cases to argue for the whole thing, completely ignoring that those edge cases are not what most people think about when using those terms.
- bigbugbag 7y ago
  Let's not forget that there was a time when children were taught sex in practical lessons with their parents and this was the norm and perfectly accepted and as such worked well. It is quite possible that in our times and current society the same does not apply but let's keep in mind that our current society is sick and wrong in many ways, rotten to the core to the point it is self-destructive. "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - JoeSmithson 7y ago
    > "there was a time when children were taught sex in practical lessons with their parents and this was the norm and perfectly accepted and as such worked well." What time is this referring to?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- matz1 7y ago
  >The entire point why paedophilia is considered an awful act is because a child is not mature enough to give consent for such action. Then why its fine to force a child to go to school? They can't consent to that either.

input_sh 7y ago

> Surely the coercion bit is the important bit? Absolutely not. The entire point why paedophilia is considered an awful act is because a child is not mature enough to give consent for such action. Since children (and I repeat, CHILDREN) are unable to give a proper consent, any sort of a sexual action with them is considered as rape. > ...but he's basically saying that adults should not have sex with children. No, he specifically disagrees with the age of consent: > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29 https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20... In case you're curious, age of consent is mostly 14 to 18 around the world (with some exceptions), and 16 to 18 in the US, depending on the state. He does not provide us with a number, but if you ask me, it's a really weird hill to die on.

scholia 7y ago
From Wikipedia: So, as of May 2019, in the 34 states that have set a marriage age by statute, the lower minimum marriage age when all exceptions are taken into account, are: 2 states have a minimum age of 14: Alaska and North Carolina. 4 states have a minimum age of 15. 20 states have a minimum age of 16. 8 states have a minimum age of 17. In Massachusetts the general marriage age is 18, but children may be married with judicial consent with no minimum age limit. In the absence of any statutory minimum age, one opinion is that the minimum common law marriageable age of 12 for girls and 14 for boys may still apply. Unlike many other states, in Massachusetts a child's marriage does not automatically emancipate the minor, or increase his or her legal rights beyond allowing the minor to consent to certain medical treatments. -- End of quotation -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_age_in_the_United_States#Underage_marriage_age_by_jurisdiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_age_in_the_United_Sta... I'm not an American, so I don't understand why you have not fixed this obvious problem.
- input_sh 7y ago
  Those exceptions are related to the age of the other person. So, for example, in a place where the age of consent is at 18, an 18 year old could have sex with a 16 year old without being considered a paedophile, while a 25 year old could not have sex with anyone below 18. There's nothing about those exceptions that's US-specific. The number I've posted are the official ones if the other person is above 20-something, while the numbers that you've posted are applicable when both parties are similar in age.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    > So, for example, in a place where the age of consent is at 18, an 18 year old could have sex with a 16 year old without being considered a paedophile, while a 25 year old could not have sex with anyone below 18. That doesn't sound correct to me. As I understand it, an adult (18 and above in the US) cannot legally have sex with someone under the age of consent. So if the age of consent is 18, and an 18 year old has sex with a 16 year old, that is considered statutory rape or child sexual abuse. A quick Wikipedia skim[0] seems to agree with me. Perhaps you meant to say "if the age of consent is 16"? Even then, that doesn't sound right. In that case, both an 18 year old and 25 year old could legally have sex with a 16 year old. There do appear to be some exceptions in some parts of the world where, as you say, there are exceptions for people of similar age. So in some places, an 18 year old might not be prosecuted for having sex with a 16 or 17 year old if the age of consent is 18. But these seem to be few and far between. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
    - input_sh 7y ago
      > As I understand it, an adult (18 and above in the US) cannot legally have sex with someone under the age of consent. So if the age of consent is 18, and an 18 year old has sex with a 16 year old, that is considered statutory rape or child sexual abuse. That's a pretty common mistake to make. There's two different sets of rules that kinda blend together when you try to reduce age of consent to a single digit. Wikipedia indeed agrees with me: > In most states there is not a single age in which a person may consent, but rather consent varies depending upon the minimum age of the younger party, the minimum age of the older party, or the differences in age. Some states have a single age of consent. Thirty U.S. states have age gap laws which make sexual activity legal if the ages of both participants are close to one another, and these laws are often referred to as "Romeo and Juliet laws". Other states have measures which reduce penalties if the two parties are close in age, and others provide an affirmative defense if the two parties are close in age. Even though state laws regarding the general age of consent and age gap laws differ, it is common for people in the United States to assume that sexual activity with someone under 18 is statutory rape. Paragraph taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#State_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_... In any case, we've deviated from the topic far enough. I'd argue that it's a weird thing to advocate for lowering of the age of consent. At best, I'm willing to agree that RMS uses terms like an edgy teen. Minors sext each other, therefore, we should make child pornography legal (seriously, I'm not making this up: https://stallman.org/archives/2012-jul-oct.html#15_September_2012_%28Censorship_of_child_pornography%29 https://stallman.org/archives/2012-jul-oct.html#15_September...). Age of consent needs to be lowered, therefore paedophilia should become legal. He talks about the edge cases to argue for the whole thing, completely ignoring that those edge cases are not what most people think about when using those terms.
bigbugbag 7y ago
Let's not forget that there was a time when children were taught sex in practical lessons with their parents and this was the norm and perfectly accepted and as such worked well. It is quite possible that in our times and current society the same does not apply but let's keep in mind that our current society is sick and wrong in many ways, rotten to the core to the point it is self-destructive. "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- JoeSmithson 7y ago
  > "there was a time when children were taught sex in practical lessons with their parents and this was the norm and perfectly accepted and as such worked well." What time is this referring to?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
matz1 7y ago
>The entire point why paedophilia is considered an awful act is because a child is not mature enough to give consent for such action. Then why its fine to force a child to go to school? They can't consent to that either.