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I have, with the best most charitable reading of your post, no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps some context would be useful with regards to Stallman.

I have, with the best most charitable reading of your post, no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps some context would be useful with regards to Stallman. Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and esotericn's comment. edit: ok...finally some context from other commenters answering (finally) my question, which I think is this from 11th August 2019: Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell. Or perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to murder prisoners accused of sexual crimes. Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be imprisoned. Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16. Ok maybe I'm really thick, how does this cause Stallman to resign? His language seems pretty much on par with newspaper of headlines in his "blog". I really don't have an axe to grind either way. I'm trying to get to the bottom of who said what? Edit..again: so thanks to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990293 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990293 , this is the crux of the matter: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420... I've not read the full thread so don't have an opinion either way. If Minsky and Stallman were good friends then I can understand Stallman coming to his defence, especially when dead people can't give an account of themselves. That said I kinda feel Stallman's dug a bit of a hole for himself, and may need a bigger shovel to get out.

esotericn 7y ago
> Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and op's comment. Am I the OP in this context? I think this is exactly what I'm talking about? I've made a comment explaining how this environment baffles me, and you think my comment must be somehow tribal in nature.
- teh_klev 7y ago
  > and you think my comment must be somehow tribal in nature. Tribal in what way? And I said nothing of the sort. I have no "tribal" interest in Stallman's efforts or his beliefs. I think the man has done some fine things in terms of GPLv2, less so v3, but I'm certainly not an absolutist. I genuinely didn't understand your comment, which you still haven't answered, yet you attack me for being "tribal".
  - esotericn 7y ago
    Well, you asked whether I'm defending Stallman or Epstein. The answer is, err, "not applicable"?
    - teh_klev 7y ago
      Then your comment is a non-sequitur, and you seem unwilling to defend or explain it (either way). edit: ok, so now I have some context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990293 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990293 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420... Which after all this was what I was asking for. Jeezo.
stevenwoo 7y ago
It came out this weekend that Stallman wrote that it was most plausible that the Epstein sexual partners were willing participants and the semantics of the word rape when used to refer to the children with whom Epstein had sexual relations in an email thread defending Epstein, Stallman also argued about the age of consent varying between different territories so not all the partners were below the age of consent where the alleged crimes occurred. Stallman also defended Marvin Minsky who went to Epstein events against victim accusations that Minsky was part of Epstein's trafficking ring.
- Cogito 7y ago
  Just in case you haven't read the rest of the discussion here, this statement > Stallman wrote that it was most plausible that the Epstein sexual partners were willing participants is one of the misquotations of what Stallman actually wrote that change the meaning significantly. He wrote > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. "presented ... as entirely willing" is very different to "were willing"
gruez 7y ago
probably this: > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be imprisoned. >Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16. https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman....
- mikekchar 7y ago
  The link does not contain the text you quoted (possibly because it is malformed). I also couldn't find that quote on a google search. Could you provide another link?
  - gruez 7y ago
    Did you scroll down? Both quotes could be found with firefox's control-f.
  - teh_klev 7y ago
    Do a ctrl-F, it's there.
- teh_klev 7y ago
  >>Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16. Sure, but if anyone bothers to read to the end of that sentence he says: "I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16." He's not defending rape in any way shape or form, regardless of age.
mikekchar 7y ago
Stallman participated in an online discussion of the situation in which he condemned Epstein, but questioned whether or not Minsky had done wrong. It was not clear whether Minsky was aware that the woman had been coerced into having sex with him. There was a reply on the thread which said that the woman was under the age of consent in the country where the act was said to have taken place (but not in the US, I guess). Stallman further replied that in general (but not not necessarily specifically about this case) he felt it wasn't reasonable to quibble about that kind of technicality when discussing the morality of the situation (i.e. it would have been legal in one place, but not another). After that, there were pieces written by various web media outlets where they mis-quoted Stallman, alleging that he said things which he does not seem to have said. So I think the OP is wondering out loud why it's not OK for Stallman to have a public opinion about the morality of the situation where it is apparently OK in one country, but if you go on holiday to another country it is rape. The OP did not mention Epstein at all and it's not related to the discussion in any way. The problem is that the media has been waging a kind of character assassination of Stallman and quite frankly appears to have slandered him rather badly. However, to answer the OP's musings: Stallman should know better than to get pulled into this kind of conversation because he has many political opponents who will stop at nothing to drag his name in the mud. He was completely stupid to respond at all. Maybe it's not fair, but it's reality.
- AndrewBissell 7y ago
  > where it is apparently OK in one country, but if you go on holiday to another country it is rape No, having sex with Epstein's trafficked victims is considered rape in pretty much all countries. Protestations that the victim "presented herself as willing" are like defending a buyer of obviously stolen goods on the basis that the fence didn't overtly tell them they were stolen. Minsky was a 73-year-old man offered sex by a 17-year-old girl on his friend's Caribbean island -- he knew what the real situation was.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    Could he have thought she was "just" a prostitute?

esotericn 7y ago

> Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and op's comment. Am I the OP in this context? I think this is exactly what I'm talking about? I've made a comment explaining how this environment baffles me, and you think my comment must be somehow tribal in nature.

teh_klev 7y ago
> and you think my comment must be somehow tribal in nature. Tribal in what way? And I said nothing of the sort. I have no "tribal" interest in Stallman's efforts or his beliefs. I think the man has done some fine things in terms of GPLv2, less so v3, but I'm certainly not an absolutist. I genuinely didn't understand your comment, which you still haven't answered, yet you attack me for being "tribal".
- esotericn 7y ago
  Well, you asked whether I'm defending Stallman or Epstein. The answer is, err, "not applicable"?
  - teh_klev 7y ago
    Then your comment is a non-sequitur, and you seem unwilling to defend or explain it (either way). edit: ok, so now I have some context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990293 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990293 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420... Which after all this was what I was asking for. Jeezo.

stevenwoo 7y ago

It came out this weekend that Stallman wrote that it was most plausible that the Epstein sexual partners were willing participants and the semantics of the word rape when used to refer to the children with whom Epstein had sexual relations in an email thread defending Epstein, Stallman also argued about the age of consent varying between different territories so not all the partners were below the age of consent where the alleged crimes occurred. Stallman also defended Marvin Minsky who went to Epstein events against victim accusations that Minsky was part of Epstein's trafficking ring.

Cogito 7y ago
Just in case you haven't read the rest of the discussion here, this statement > Stallman wrote that it was most plausible that the Epstein sexual partners were willing participants is one of the misquotations of what Stallman actually wrote that change the meaning significantly. He wrote > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. "presented ... as entirely willing" is very different to "were willing"

gruez 7y ago

probably this: > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be imprisoned. >Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16. https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman....

mikekchar 7y ago
The link does not contain the text you quoted (possibly because it is malformed). I also couldn't find that quote on a google search. Could you provide another link?
- gruez 7y ago
  Did you scroll down? Both quotes could be found with firefox's control-f.
- teh_klev 7y ago
  Do a ctrl-F, it's there.
teh_klev 7y ago
>>Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16. Sure, but if anyone bothers to read to the end of that sentence he says: "I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16." He's not defending rape in any way shape or form, regardless of age.

mikekchar 7y ago

Stallman participated in an online discussion of the situation in which he condemned Epstein, but questioned whether or not Minsky had done wrong. It was not clear whether Minsky was aware that the woman had been coerced into having sex with him. There was a reply on the thread which said that the woman was under the age of consent in the country where the act was said to have taken place (but not in the US, I guess). Stallman further replied that in general (but not not necessarily specifically about this case) he felt it wasn't reasonable to quibble about that kind of technicality when discussing the morality of the situation (i.e. it would have been legal in one place, but not another). After that, there were pieces written by various web media outlets where they mis-quoted Stallman, alleging that he said things which he does not seem to have said. So I think the OP is wondering out loud why it's not OK for Stallman to have a public opinion about the morality of the situation where it is apparently OK in one country, but if you go on holiday to another country it is rape. The OP did not mention Epstein at all and it's not related to the discussion in any way. The problem is that the media has been waging a kind of character assassination of Stallman and quite frankly appears to have slandered him rather badly. However, to answer the OP's musings: Stallman should know better than to get pulled into this kind of conversation because he has many political opponents who will stop at nothing to drag his name in the mud. He was completely stupid to respond at all. Maybe it's not fair, but it's reality.

AndrewBissell 7y ago
> where it is apparently OK in one country, but if you go on holiday to another country it is rape No, having sex with Epstein's trafficked victims is considered rape in pretty much all countries. Protestations that the victim "presented herself as willing" are like defending a buyer of obviously stolen goods on the basis that the fence didn't overtly tell them they were stolen. Minsky was a 73-year-old man offered sex by a 17-year-old girl on his friend's Caribbean island -- he knew what the real situation was.
- oh_sigh 7y ago
  Could he have thought she was "just" a prostitute?