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What counts as advertising?

by tqi 7y ago

AndrewKemendo 7y ago
This is the same as saying "Define Pornography." You're asking for a bulletproof formula that doesn't exist. That doesn't mean we can't take a pretty good bite out of it. How about this: Any action taken by an individual or organization with the intent of influencing another individual to execute a commercial transaction. No billboards, TV commercials, newspaper advertisements, hyperbolic statements about products. I'm sure some wacky new loophole would be found, but it would be just that, some wacky loophole, not a massive trillion dollar industry built around manipulation.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  > Any action taken by an individual or organization with the intent of influencing another individual to execute a commercial transaction. That definition pretty much boils down to every interaction between businesses and individuals, ever. Any kind of negotiating or sales or communication..
  - AndrewKemendo 7y ago
    Correct. Like I said, it's pervasive to the extent that we just assume it's the only way it could be, but it's behind every terrible thing. I know this first hand, I built these systems. The end state is to know and predict everything you do, and then sell you something about it. Whether its a product or an experience or a feeling. That's where it all leads - you lose your agency. Getting rid of online marketing or nudging it one direction or the other won't really change it. You can ban it online outright, but it will persist in another form. Our entire world economy is based on different groups vying for your attention to monetize, to the point that as we go further, nothing is not monetizable. It's the Truman show, but everyone is Truman.
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      I've worked with small businesses - the small one to thirty person plummer or photographer or decorator type. What you're asking for is fundamentally impossible. Business and entrepreneurship is a human process where two entities find a transaction that benefits them both. Of course this breaks down when shady actors manipulate in bad faith, but that's the price of freedom. To put a ban into place as extensive as you're suggesting would be to regulate speech as far as I'm concerned.
      - AndrewKemendo 7y ago
        You're just reinforcing the point that we're in too deep for it to be a comfortable transition.
        cameronbrown 7y ago
        Not really. I understand your complaint, but what you're saying would kill entrepreneurship. How else can companies compete if they're not even allowed to go 'hey, I think we've got a better solution at a lower price'.
- tqi 7y ago
  Without a formal definition it's impossible to legislate or enforce. Take HN - arguably this whole forum is an ad for YC. Would this fall under your definition?
executesorder66 7y ago
Everyone can have their own definition, and allow me to present my own. Advertising is any unsolicited communication about a product/service. That covers ads on webpages, billboards, TV ads, radio ads, youtube ads, someone yelling at you in the street about their product/service. I didn't look for that info, so I don't want it. You and your product/service can fuck off. "Advertising" that I do not object to is where the "customer" actually looked for it. Here are some examples of that: Displaying a list of products/services that you provide on your _own_ website that people can look for. Entries in the Yellow pages or something similar. Like for example (unpaid) search results. If I am looking for a plumber, then I can look in the Yellow pages and see a list. And I won't get pissed off because it's what I wanted. Or I can google plumbers, and get a list of websites in the search results, and then click on the links and view their websites where they describe their products/services. I also won't get pissed off by this, because I was looking for it and no one shoved it down my throat. I agree with AndrewKemendo that advertising (as I have described above) is insane and needs to go away. It has no place in a civilized society. There is literally no difference between advertising (as per my definition) and spam. I would go so far as to call it harassment.

What counts as advertising?

by tqi 7y ago

What counts as advertising?

This is the same as saying "Define Pornography." You're asking for a bulletproof formula that doesn't exist. That doesn't mean we can't take a pretty good bite out of it. How about this: Any action taken by an individual or organization with the intent of influencing another individual to execute a commercial transaction. No billboards, TV commercials, newspaper advertisements, hyperbolic statements about products. I'm sure some wacky new loophole would be found, but it would be just that, some wacky loophole, not a massive trillion dollar industry built around manipulation.

cameronbrown 7y ago
> Any action taken by an individual or organization with the intent of influencing another individual to execute a commercial transaction. That definition pretty much boils down to every interaction between businesses and individuals, ever. Any kind of negotiating or sales or communication..
- AndrewKemendo 7y ago
  Correct. Like I said, it's pervasive to the extent that we just assume it's the only way it could be, but it's behind every terrible thing. I know this first hand, I built these systems. The end state is to know and predict everything you do, and then sell you something about it. Whether its a product or an experience or a feeling. That's where it all leads - you lose your agency. Getting rid of online marketing or nudging it one direction or the other won't really change it. You can ban it online outright, but it will persist in another form. Our entire world economy is based on different groups vying for your attention to monetize, to the point that as we go further, nothing is not monetizable. It's the Truman show, but everyone is Truman.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    I've worked with small businesses - the small one to thirty person plummer or photographer or decorator type. What you're asking for is fundamentally impossible. Business and entrepreneurship is a human process where two entities find a transaction that benefits them both. Of course this breaks down when shady actors manipulate in bad faith, but that's the price of freedom. To put a ban into place as extensive as you're suggesting would be to regulate speech as far as I'm concerned.
    - AndrewKemendo 7y ago
      You're just reinforcing the point that we're in too deep for it to be a comfortable transition.
      - cameronbrown 7y ago
        Not really. I understand your complaint, but what you're saying would kill entrepreneurship. How else can companies compete if they're not even allowed to go 'hey, I think we've got a better solution at a lower price'.
tqi 7y ago
Without a formal definition it's impossible to legislate or enforce. Take HN - arguably this whole forum is an ad for YC. Would this fall under your definition?

executesorder66 7y ago

Everyone can have their own definition, and allow me to present my own. Advertising is any unsolicited communication about a product/service. That covers ads on webpages, billboards, TV ads, radio ads, youtube ads, someone yelling at you in the street about their product/service. I didn't look for that info, so I don't want it. You and your product/service can fuck off. "Advertising" that I do not object to is where the "customer" actually looked for it. Here are some examples of that: Displaying a list of products/services that you provide on your _own_ website that people can look for. Entries in the Yellow pages or something similar. Like for example (unpaid) search results. If I am looking for a plumber, then I can look in the Yellow pages and see a list. And I won't get pissed off because it's what I wanted. Or I can google plumbers, and get a list of websites in the search results, and then click on the links and view their websites where they describe their products/services. I also won't get pissed off by this, because I was looking for it and no one shoved it down my throat. I agree with AndrewKemendo that advertising (as I have described above) is insane and needs to go away. It has no place in a civilized society. There is literally no difference between advertising (as per my definition) and spam. I would go so far as to call it harassment.