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Is Apple really not listening to it's customers, or just not listening to a small, vocal subset? I've really only heard complaints about the touchbar from softw

Is Apple really not listening to it's customers, or just not listening to a small, vocal subset? I've really only heard complaints about the touchbar from software devs, which are not Apple's main customers. Apple's main customers are creatives and people that want to spend a lot of money for what amounts to a well made (MacBook pro keyboard issues notwithstanding), functional status symbols. Making a smaller, cheaper iPhone isn't really useful for the creatives and just devalues Apple as a status symbol for the people that buy it for that. > For years, Apple’s flagship iOS phones wouldn’t even connect to their flagship MacBooks and MacBook pros without an additional cable or adapter. > My next laptop will be a hackintoshed Lenovo. I really don't think you are Apple's target audience. Most iPhone users don't connect their phone to a computer anymore, especially the people that are buying flagship Macs and iPhones, and the few that do generally don't mind buying the extra cable. And most people with the skills and patience to tinker with their systems to make functional hackintoshes probably aren't big on buying services, which is what Apple is trying to transition into.

lostgame 7y ago
>> I really don't think you are Apple's target audience. I am a creative professional - which, historically, was a very important part of Apple’s user base; and the reason I still use their products. The ecosystem and workflow of using an iPhone or iPad to write a simple musical idea in GarageBand on the subway, and then finding it already on my iCloud on my MacBook Pro at home, so I can open it up in Logic and refine it, is unparalleled. Anecdotally, I’ve never had anyone whom I’ve met, dev, creative, or casual user, who enjoys or uses the Touch Bar. It’s not even just the touch bar. The keyboard, the soldered RAM and SSD which prevent upgrades, the lack of ports, when I spend more for a MacBook now, I’m getting far less than I did in my many years of purchasing them. Furthermore, I could pull up a heap of references for this, but it’s a much more serious case with the SE form factor than even Apple’s current garbage laptop offerings. There are practically a lot of people with smaller hands - they would be happy to give Apple their money but have nothing to give it for.
- chrisan 7y ago
  Just for record, I don't know any non-creative/developer who own macs. Anyone else does not like the touchbar. The same subsets care about headphone jacks or not. I'm 6'1" and think I have decent sized hands, I'd still prefer the 4S size if I could get it All that said, historically sure, but creative and/or professionals are not the target of a mainstream phone meant to sell millions of phones. I've given up dreaming and just deal with it as I still prefer iOS to Android
  - stevewodil 7y ago
    Go to any college. Most people there buy Macs for simple note taking.
- stevewodil 7y ago
  I'm a dev and like the touch bar. Ask me anything
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    1) Would you like a physical function bar as well? 2) Do you use anything to customize the Touchbar to your liking? (I haven't used OS X in quite a while, and haven't heard of anything) 3) How's the rest of your keyboard doing? Do you like it?
    - daseiner1 7y ago
      1. Personally, no. 2. I love BetterTouchTool – I use it at work and at home. Ambivalent towards the touch bar without it, LOVE the touch bar with it. 3. My mid-'16 personal Macbook has the "stuttering keyboard" issue – extra characters typed if not careful. I haven't been doing much side-work lately so I can ignore it, but it's a real pain in the ass for sure. Haven't had that issue on my 2018 work Macbook (yet).
    - kristofferR 7y ago
      2. The touchbar is very customizeable. GoldenChaos-BTT is the best one: https://community.folivora.ai/t/goldenchaos-btt-the-complete-touch-bar-ui-replacement/1281 https://community.folivora.ai/t/goldenchaos-btt-the-complete...
8note 7y ago
requiring an extra adapter to connect you phone to your laptop really goes against the "it just works" creed
- lostgame 7y ago
  It’s laughable.
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
There are 26 million software developers in the world, virtually all of them own a work or personal laptop (many both), and they have a much higher percentage of owning Macs vs the normal distribution. Apple "only" sells 18M laptops a year. Software developers likely account for 1/4th (or more) of their MacBook sales.
- lostgame 7y ago
  iOS development in particular seems to be a huge contributor to this. Where, 15 years ago, I entered the software industry, Macs were virtually non existent in the workplace, I now use one - along with about 25 other people on my floor.
  - jonathankoren 7y ago
    I don’t know. I think the fact that it’s a Unix you don’t have to futz with. I know a lot of software shops in the past 15 years that we’re all Macs, where no one was doing iOS development.
- mantap 7y ago
  Many of those software developers are in developing or middle income countries and can't afford a Mac. Just because software developers have a higher rate of buying Macs it does not follow that 1/4 of Macs are bought by software developers.
cm2187 7y ago
Given the number of people I used to see in the street using the shitty quality earphones that were in the box with a new iphone, I think the reality is that most of Apple’s users don’t really give a shit about music quality in the first place.
_hardwaregeek 7y ago
Exactly. Which is more likely: Apple is just ignoring people left and right, making terrible decisions and bleeding money, while you, an HN poster/redditor, know precisely what Apple is doing wrong and can fix it. Or Apple is doing user testing and your needs do not reflect the general population?
jessewmc 7y ago
I think this is general a pretty good argument, and in good faith, but I can't help but think that at some point power users and developers become a leading indicator. Poor longevity and rising prices and useless or missing features wont result in a slow decline in sales -- the momentum will keep carrying things until some tipping point when complete disconnection from the market makes things get ugly. Developers and creatives were never the major customers of Apple gear, but in the mid-to late 2000s when things started to pick up they were great evangelists. I don't think it's a good look when those people are vocally saying they're going to switch.
hrktb 7y ago
I think the iPhone SE is a special case in that it's still supported to this day, and actually works fine in most if not all regards. Any user happy with it has no reason to be vocal. Most people won't be making blogpost about how they're not interested in new phones when the one they have is still fine. As an aside, I think people don't complain about the TouchBar because it's rarely used outside of the sound and brightness widgets. The majority of people aren't using escape or control keys like crazy, which could explain why mostly devs are in cries. There's no such split for using a phone, so when the iPhone SE is effectively dead and there's no gateway to a similar product, I expect the real wave of complain to rise up.

lostgame 7y ago

>> I really don't think you are Apple's target audience. I am a creative professional - which, historically, was a very important part of Apple’s user base; and the reason I still use their products. The ecosystem and workflow of using an iPhone or iPad to write a simple musical idea in GarageBand on the subway, and then finding it already on my iCloud on my MacBook Pro at home, so I can open it up in Logic and refine it, is unparalleled. Anecdotally, I’ve never had anyone whom I’ve met, dev, creative, or casual user, who enjoys or uses the Touch Bar. It’s not even just the touch bar. The keyboard, the soldered RAM and SSD which prevent upgrades, the lack of ports, when I spend more for a MacBook now, I’m getting far less than I did in my many years of purchasing them. Furthermore, I could pull up a heap of references for this, but it’s a much more serious case with the SE form factor than even Apple’s current garbage laptop offerings. There are practically a lot of people with smaller hands - they would be happy to give Apple their money but have nothing to give it for.

chrisan 7y ago
Just for record, I don't know any non-creative/developer who own macs. Anyone else does not like the touchbar. The same subsets care about headphone jacks or not. I'm 6'1" and think I have decent sized hands, I'd still prefer the 4S size if I could get it All that said, historically sure, but creative and/or professionals are not the target of a mainstream phone meant to sell millions of phones. I've given up dreaming and just deal with it as I still prefer iOS to Android
- stevewodil 7y ago
  Go to any college. Most people there buy Macs for simple note taking.
stevewodil 7y ago
I'm a dev and like the touch bar. Ask me anything
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  1) Would you like a physical function bar as well? 2) Do you use anything to customize the Touchbar to your liking? (I haven't used OS X in quite a while, and haven't heard of anything) 3) How's the rest of your keyboard doing? Do you like it?
  - daseiner1 7y ago
    1. Personally, no. 2. I love BetterTouchTool – I use it at work and at home. Ambivalent towards the touch bar without it, LOVE the touch bar with it. 3. My mid-'16 personal Macbook has the "stuttering keyboard" issue – extra characters typed if not careful. I haven't been doing much side-work lately so I can ignore it, but it's a real pain in the ass for sure. Haven't had that issue on my 2018 work Macbook (yet).
  - kristofferR 7y ago
    2. The touchbar is very customizeable. GoldenChaos-BTT is the best one: https://community.folivora.ai/t/goldenchaos-btt-the-complete-touch-bar-ui-replacement/1281 https://community.folivora.ai/t/goldenchaos-btt-the-complete...

8note 7y ago

requiring an extra adapter to connect you phone to your laptop really goes against the "it just works" creed

lostgame 7y ago
It’s laughable.

onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago

There are 26 million software developers in the world, virtually all of them own a work or personal laptop (many both), and they have a much higher percentage of owning Macs vs the normal distribution. Apple "only" sells 18M laptops a year. Software developers likely account for 1/4th (or more) of their MacBook sales.

lostgame 7y ago
iOS development in particular seems to be a huge contributor to this. Where, 15 years ago, I entered the software industry, Macs were virtually non existent in the workplace, I now use one - along with about 25 other people on my floor.
- jonathankoren 7y ago
  I don’t know. I think the fact that it’s a Unix you don’t have to futz with. I know a lot of software shops in the past 15 years that we’re all Macs, where no one was doing iOS development.
mantap 7y ago
Many of those software developers are in developing or middle income countries and can't afford a Mac. Just because software developers have a higher rate of buying Macs it does not follow that 1/4 of Macs are bought by software developers.

cm2187 7y ago

Given the number of people I used to see in the street using the shitty quality earphones that were in the box with a new iphone, I think the reality is that most of Apple’s users don’t really give a shit about music quality in the first place.

_hardwaregeek 7y ago

Exactly. Which is more likely: Apple is just ignoring people left and right, making terrible decisions and bleeding money, while you, an HN poster/redditor, know precisely what Apple is doing wrong and can fix it. Or Apple is doing user testing and your needs do not reflect the general population?

jessewmc 7y ago

I think this is general a pretty good argument, and in good faith, but I can't help but think that at some point power users and developers become a leading indicator. Poor longevity and rising prices and useless or missing features wont result in a slow decline in sales -- the momentum will keep carrying things until some tipping point when complete disconnection from the market makes things get ugly. Developers and creatives were never the major customers of Apple gear, but in the mid-to late 2000s when things started to pick up they were great evangelists. I don't think it's a good look when those people are vocally saying they're going to switch.

hrktb 7y ago

I think the iPhone SE is a special case in that it's still supported to this day, and actually works fine in most if not all regards. Any user happy with it has no reason to be vocal. Most people won't be making blogpost about how they're not interested in new phones when the one they have is still fine. As an aside, I think people don't complain about the TouchBar because it's rarely used outside of the sound and brightness widgets. The majority of people aren't using escape or control keys like crazy, which could explain why mostly devs are in cries. There's no such split for using a phone, so when the iPhone SE is effectively dead and there's no gateway to a similar product, I expect the real wave of complain to rise up.