6 ms·

I'm wondering what Russia did or did not get. Assuming we trust that Snowden acted based on the motivation he stated, it's plausible that he destroyed his copy

I'm wondering what Russia did or did not get. Assuming we trust that Snowden acted based on the motivation he stated, it's plausible that he destroyed his copy of the documents before traveling to Russia. However, once there, and stuck in that holding cell for weeks, completely in the hands of Russia, I can't see how he'd withstand the pressure to give them what he still had and couldn't get rid of - the knowledge in his head. (But keep in mind that the US brought the "Snowden in Russian hands" situation upon themselves by cancelling his passport.) I also can't see how the newspapers would be able to keep the documents secret from a foreign intelligence agency. Such a high-value secret stored and handled in a dozen different places, by people who only have a short opsec training, limited understanding, and few resources and little support to establish effective security... Not saying Snowden shouldn't have done it; his revelations showed massive illegal spying by the NSA, and triggered (some, not sufficient but better than nothing) reforms. But claiming no harm seems a stretch.

linkregister 7y ago
The US cancelled Snowden's passport prior to his departure from Hong Kong.
cmiles74 7y ago
Unless the US has someone from inside Russian intelligence willing to go on the record that Snowden provided actionable intelligence, this seems like a moot point. Certainly this kind of circumstantial evidence (or, really, lack of evidence) wouldn't be allowed in a proper, legal trial.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  We already know that he divulged detailed lists of Chinese targets in a failed attempt to gain asylum in Hong Kong. That would be allowed in a trial, and would lock him away for sure. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-s...
  - cmiles74 7y ago
    This seems like a mis-characterization of the information in the article. According to the piece, Snowden provided this data to the South China Morning Post directly, not the Chinese government. This article also makes no mention of this information being used as an attempt to gain asylum in Hong Kong.
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      > According to the piece, Snowden provided this data to the South China Morning Post directly A newspaper that must hand over any data it has to the Chinese government upon request but is already fully surveiled by that government anyway, as anybody (even a high school dropout) can figure out. > This article also makes no mention of this information being used as an attempt to gain asylum in Hong Kong. He made it clear that he was attempting to gain asylum in Hong Kong (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/12/edward-snowden-us-extradition-fight https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/12/edward-snowden...). What reason does he have to divulge details of the NSA's (not illegal) hacking of Chinese infrastructure other than to try to help his case?
      - Huycfhct 7y ago
        That's no clear in any way that a HK newspaper has to pass info to the communist party. Separate legal system. Hence the protest about an "extradition" law
      - cmiles74 7y ago
        The Guardian article mentioned doesn't state that he provided the information on NSA cracking attempts of civilian Hong Kong and Chinese targets as an attempt to gain legal asylum. On the contrary, Edward Snowden maintains that he provided the data as further evidence that the NSA was targeting civilians, a claim that the NSA at the time contradicted. > Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate "the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries".
mLuby 7y ago
Setting aside anything Russia might have gained, there was clear harm done to the reputations of US intel agencies (and US more generally), as well as minor but directly consequent limits placed on their abilities. I don't know if you can tie GDPR into all this but that would likely include "damage" to economies as well. What matters is whether the disclosure helped more than it hurt. I think the jury's out on that until either the next major terror attack or the US pardons Snowden.
- baddox 7y ago
  Yeah, whistleblowers “do clear damage” to the organizations they expose. Personally I blame that damage not on the whistleblower, who is just telling the truth, but rather on the people who actually did the illegal or inappropriate things that the whistleblower exposed.
  - mLuby 7y ago
    100% agreed
wolco 7y ago
Your believe that foreign intelligence agencies are all knowing and have the ability to act quickly is probably not accurate. On tv they do but in reality most of their work takes time and their ability to react quickly is based on previous intelligence and careful planning. I can see how the reports could retrieve and filter the materials without issue. No one ever really planned this scenerio or at least put resources in place to opt it.
- tyingq 7y ago
  All knowing might be a stretch, but on the other hand, there's stuff like "ssl added and removed here" that let the US be pretty close to it for some portions of the internet: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-infiltrates-links-to-yahoo-google-data-centers-worldwide-snowden-documents-say/2013/10/30/e51d661e-4166-11e3-8b74-d89d714ca4dd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-i...
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
In theory he should have nothing or nearly nothing actionable in his head. The policies and procedures of spy organizations like the NSA are tailored as best they can to avoiding situations where low level people have anything of value in their heads (division of responsibility, siloing teams, etc.). You are very much just a gear in the machine. At least on paper that's how it all works.

linkregister 7y ago

The US cancelled Snowden's passport prior to his departure from Hong Kong.

cmiles74 7y ago

Unless the US has someone from inside Russian intelligence willing to go on the record that Snowden provided actionable intelligence, this seems like a moot point. Certainly this kind of circumstantial evidence (or, really, lack of evidence) wouldn't be allowed in a proper, legal trial.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
We already know that he divulged detailed lists of Chinese targets in a failed attempt to gain asylum in Hong Kong. That would be allowed in a trial, and would lock him away for sure. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-s...
- cmiles74 7y ago
  This seems like a mis-characterization of the information in the article. According to the piece, Snowden provided this data to the South China Morning Post directly, not the Chinese government. This article also makes no mention of this information being used as an attempt to gain asylum in Hong Kong.
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    > According to the piece, Snowden provided this data to the South China Morning Post directly A newspaper that must hand over any data it has to the Chinese government upon request but is already fully surveiled by that government anyway, as anybody (even a high school dropout) can figure out. > This article also makes no mention of this information being used as an attempt to gain asylum in Hong Kong. He made it clear that he was attempting to gain asylum in Hong Kong (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/12/edward-snowden-us-extradition-fight https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/12/edward-snowden...). What reason does he have to divulge details of the NSA's (not illegal) hacking of Chinese infrastructure other than to try to help his case?
    - Huycfhct 7y ago
      That's no clear in any way that a HK newspaper has to pass info to the communist party. Separate legal system. Hence the protest about an "extradition" law
    - cmiles74 7y ago
      The Guardian article mentioned doesn't state that he provided the information on NSA cracking attempts of civilian Hong Kong and Chinese targets as an attempt to gain legal asylum. On the contrary, Edward Snowden maintains that he provided the data as further evidence that the NSA was targeting civilians, a claim that the NSA at the time contradicted. > Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate "the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries".

mLuby 7y ago

Setting aside anything Russia might have gained, there was clear harm done to the reputations of US intel agencies (and US more generally), as well as minor but directly consequent limits placed on their abilities. I don't know if you can tie GDPR into all this but that would likely include "damage" to economies as well. What matters is whether the disclosure helped more than it hurt. I think the jury's out on that until either the next major terror attack or the US pardons Snowden.

baddox 7y ago
Yeah, whistleblowers “do clear damage” to the organizations they expose. Personally I blame that damage not on the whistleblower, who is just telling the truth, but rather on the people who actually did the illegal or inappropriate things that the whistleblower exposed.
- mLuby 7y ago
  100% agreed

wolco 7y ago

Your believe that foreign intelligence agencies are all knowing and have the ability to act quickly is probably not accurate. On tv they do but in reality most of their work takes time and their ability to react quickly is based on previous intelligence and careful planning. I can see how the reports could retrieve and filter the materials without issue. No one ever really planned this scenerio or at least put resources in place to opt it.

tyingq 7y ago
All knowing might be a stretch, but on the other hand, there's stuff like "ssl added and removed here" that let the US be pretty close to it for some portions of the internet: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-infiltrates-links-to-yahoo-google-data-centers-worldwide-snowden-documents-say/2013/10/30/e51d661e-4166-11e3-8b74-d89d714ca4dd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-i...

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

In theory he should have nothing or nearly nothing actionable in his head. The policies and procedures of spy organizations like the NSA are tailored as best they can to avoiding situations where low level people have anything of value in their heads (division of responsibility, siloing teams, etc.). You are very much just a gear in the machine. At least on paper that's how it all works.