5 ms·

Obama should have pardoned him

by ydnaclementine 7y ago

ndarwincorn 7y ago
Should have? Sure. Given how his administration treated Chelsea Manning idk why we'd expect that.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Obama released Manning. Commuted her sentence decades early.
  - satori99 7y ago
    His administration also prosecuted more whistle-blowers under the Espionage Act, than all of his predecessors combined.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      For a grand total of eleven prosecutions since 1945. https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/jake-tapper/cnns-tapper-obama-has-used-espionage-act-more-all-/ https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10... Twice of nearly nothing is still nearly nothing... and the claim being made here was that Manning, specifically, was mistreated by Obama. Manning was convicted under Bush and had her sentence commuted by Obama; I'm dubious that the specific case can be taken as "Obama mean to Manning".
      - ndarwincorn 7y ago
        >convicted under Bush What kind of revisionist history is this? She didn't whistleblow until 2010. She wasn't convicted until 2013. Hell she wasn't even assigned to intelligence under Bush. I remember arguing with my family (lifelong Democratic party members who aren't as leftist as me) that she was fulfilling Obama's transparency promises for him. Promises it was clear he wouldn't be keeping as early as the Telco immunity bill during the 08 primary.
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        My apologies, that's me mixing up dates of Obama's presidency for some reason. You're right.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > Obama released Manning. In the closing days of the administration, and with the anonymous officials they sent out to explain the decision sharply contrasting Manning's case with Snowden's. So, again, the treatment of Manning even including the commutation as Obama was on the way out provided no reason to expect anything but a cold shoulder to Snowden.
  - ndarwincorn 7y ago
    On top of what other folks have pointed out, you should look at how she was treated during her time in prison. It is to his credit that he made that particular wrong right by commuting her sentence, but as others pointed out his administration did everything in their power to differentiate that from Snowden.
adam12 7y ago
Yeah, especially since open government and whistleblower protection was a part of his campaign for president. He is a liar.
- soperj 7y ago
  Fact that Guantanamo Bay is still open speaks volumes.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  Does it count as whistleblowing if 99.9% of the documents you leak don't describe anything illegal the US government did (the only one being phone metadata collection) and if far more of the documents leaked describe compromised foreign systems that will then be patched? Obama is way smarter than anybody asking for clemency for Snowden. China: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusive-snowden-safe-hong-kong-more-us-cyberspying-details-revealed https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusiv... Pakistan: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/documents-reveal-nsas-extensive-involvement-in-targeted-killing-program/2013/10/16/29775278-3674-11e3-8a0e-4e2cf80831fc_print.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/docum...
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Obama talked in public and even campaigned about surveillance state reform, but in actual action doubled down on the darkest parts of our post-Patriot Act government. Obama wasn't responsible for starting our incredibly unethical use of drone strikes on civilian populations, but he massively expanded it, and much of the misconduct revealed by Snowden and Manning's respective leaks were Obama's shames to bear. I think it's easy to look back fondly on his Presidency in comparison to the travesty we see today, but Obama was not a good person.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  The drones weren't targeting civilians. They were targeting combatants who were in turn targeting the government the US had set up to replace the Taliban. Would you rather Obama ramped up another ground invasion? As far as doubling down on surveillance, Snowden's leaks showed that Obama shut down surveillance programs that might include Americans' data, including email envelope collection. He did not start any such programs.
WillPostForFood 7y ago
So given that Obama was willing to commute Manning's sentence, and given that the House Intelligence Committee unanimously voted to ask Obama not to pardon Snowden, perhaps Obama had good reason not pardon Snowden, and the damage Snowden did was worse than his advocates are willing to acknowledge.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  > House Intelligence Committee unanimously voted to ask Obama not to pardon Snowden > perhaps Obama had good reason not pardon Snowden > the damage Snowden did was worse than his advocates are willing to acknowledge The damage he did is precisely why his advocates want him pardoned. He damaged people who were subverting the US constitution. He provided the evidence for this. Some us think the organizations he damaged were/are acting against our democratic institutions, and therefore the damage is welcome. He not getting granted a pardon would seem to us as evidence that these anti-democratic, anti-bill of rights forces are deeply connected to the highest levels of government. But the key here is how you perceive the people who are subverting our liberty. Welcome anti-terrorist agents? Or anti-democratic shadow agents with the capacity to implement turn key dictatorship?
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    If all he did was damage improper or illegal NSA domestic programs, why do think Obama didn't pardon him. The House Intel Committee report, which was unanimously approved by Democrats and Republicans says there was damage to foreign intelligence gathering.
devmunchies 7y ago
SHOULD HAVE. Presidents actually serving the people ended with Kennedy. The whole Snowden fiasco is one example that Obama is no nobler than any other president in the last couple decades.
paganel 7y ago
Agree. Any chance Trump will do it on a whim? I’m not a fan of the political character by any means, but afaik he’s known to be doing contradictory things for whatever reasons (if it matters I’m also not a US citizen and I’ve never been to the States).
- opportune 7y ago
  I think if the right person got inside his ear he actually might, however I find the chances of that to be low. Most of the republican leadership is of the opinion that he is a traitor (as are most of the non progressive democrats). So it would take someone special
vim-guru 7y ago
This! Both Snowden and Obama seems like reasonable guys, this should have been settled years ago.

Obama should have pardoned him

ndarwincorn 7y ago

Should have? Sure. Given how his administration treated Chelsea Manning idk why we'd expect that.

ceejayoz 7y ago
Obama released Manning. Commuted her sentence decades early.
- satori99 7y ago
  His administration also prosecuted more whistle-blowers under the Espionage Act, than all of his predecessors combined.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    For a grand total of eleven prosecutions since 1945. https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/jake-tapper/cnns-tapper-obama-has-used-espionage-act-more-all-/ https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10... Twice of nearly nothing is still nearly nothing... and the claim being made here was that Manning, specifically, was mistreated by Obama. Manning was convicted under Bush and had her sentence commuted by Obama; I'm dubious that the specific case can be taken as "Obama mean to Manning".
    - ndarwincorn 7y ago
      >convicted under Bush What kind of revisionist history is this? She didn't whistleblow until 2010. She wasn't convicted until 2013. Hell she wasn't even assigned to intelligence under Bush. I remember arguing with my family (lifelong Democratic party members who aren't as leftist as me) that she was fulfilling Obama's transparency promises for him. Promises it was clear he wouldn't be keeping as early as the Telco immunity bill during the 08 primary.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        My apologies, that's me mixing up dates of Obama's presidency for some reason. You're right.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Obama released Manning. In the closing days of the administration, and with the anonymous officials they sent out to explain the decision sharply contrasting Manning's case with Snowden's. So, again, the treatment of Manning even including the commutation as Obama was on the way out provided no reason to expect anything but a cold shoulder to Snowden.
- ndarwincorn 7y ago
  On top of what other folks have pointed out, you should look at how she was treated during her time in prison. It is to his credit that he made that particular wrong right by commuting her sentence, but as others pointed out his administration did everything in their power to differentiate that from Snowden.

adam12 7y ago

Yeah, especially since open government and whistleblower protection was a part of his campaign for president. He is a liar.

soperj 7y ago
Fact that Guantanamo Bay is still open speaks volumes.
lern_too_spel 7y ago
Does it count as whistleblowing if 99.9% of the documents you leak don't describe anything illegal the US government did (the only one being phone metadata collection) and if far more of the documents leaked describe compromised foreign systems that will then be patched? Obama is way smarter than anybody asking for clemency for Snowden. China: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusive-snowden-safe-hong-kong-more-us-cyberspying-details-revealed https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusiv... Pakistan: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/documents-reveal-nsas-extensive-involvement-in-targeted-killing-program/2013/10/16/29775278-3674-11e3-8a0e-4e2cf80831fc_print.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/docum...

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

Obama talked in public and even campaigned about surveillance state reform, but in actual action doubled down on the darkest parts of our post-Patriot Act government. Obama wasn't responsible for starting our incredibly unethical use of drone strikes on civilian populations, but he massively expanded it, and much of the misconduct revealed by Snowden and Manning's respective leaks were Obama's shames to bear. I think it's easy to look back fondly on his Presidency in comparison to the travesty we see today, but Obama was not a good person.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
The drones weren't targeting civilians. They were targeting combatants who were in turn targeting the government the US had set up to replace the Taliban. Would you rather Obama ramped up another ground invasion? As far as doubling down on surveillance, Snowden's leaks showed that Obama shut down surveillance programs that might include Americans' data, including email envelope collection. He did not start any such programs.

WillPostForFood 7y ago

So given that Obama was willing to commute Manning's sentence, and given that the House Intelligence Committee unanimously voted to ask Obama not to pardon Snowden, perhaps Obama had good reason not pardon Snowden, and the damage Snowden did was worse than his advocates are willing to acknowledge.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
> House Intelligence Committee unanimously voted to ask Obama not to pardon Snowden > perhaps Obama had good reason not pardon Snowden > the damage Snowden did was worse than his advocates are willing to acknowledge The damage he did is precisely why his advocates want him pardoned. He damaged people who were subverting the US constitution. He provided the evidence for this. Some us think the organizations he damaged were/are acting against our democratic institutions, and therefore the damage is welcome. He not getting granted a pardon would seem to us as evidence that these anti-democratic, anti-bill of rights forces are deeply connected to the highest levels of government. But the key here is how you perceive the people who are subverting our liberty. Welcome anti-terrorist agents? Or anti-democratic shadow agents with the capacity to implement turn key dictatorship?
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  If all he did was damage improper or illegal NSA domestic programs, why do think Obama didn't pardon him. The House Intel Committee report, which was unanimously approved by Democrats and Republicans says there was damage to foreign intelligence gathering.

devmunchies 7y ago

SHOULD HAVE. Presidents actually serving the people ended with Kennedy. The whole Snowden fiasco is one example that Obama is no nobler than any other president in the last couple decades.

paganel 7y ago

Agree. Any chance Trump will do it on a whim? I’m not a fan of the political character by any means, but afaik he’s known to be doing contradictory things for whatever reasons (if it matters I’m also not a US citizen and I’ve never been to the States).

opportune 7y ago
I think if the right person got inside his ear he actually might, however I find the chances of that to be low. Most of the republican leadership is of the opinion that he is a traitor (as are most of the non progressive democrats). So it would take someone special

vim-guru 7y ago

This! Both Snowden and Obama seems like reasonable guys, this should have been settled years ago.