5 ms·

It's just my own ignorance speaking (probably), but I can't say that I like the idea of Android getting near/intertwined with mission critical systems. Hopeful

It's just my own ignorance speaking (probably), but I can't say that I like the idea of Android getting near/intertwined with mission critical systems. Hopefully 'infotainment' implies something that is well clear of 'stopping' and the like...although I'd just as soon that they dropped the 'tainment' part and simply provided an interface for diagnostics, HVAC, &tc. What bugs me the most about the 'tainment' part is that not only do I find most of it irritating, but that you are binding technology that obsoletes quickly with an expensive product that should last 10-20 years. It's a shame that car companies have picked this as an area for product differentiation.

alexis_fr 7y ago
The same was probably said 15 years ago about the computerization of the car engine and their rapid deprecation. Did the average lifespan of a car decrease since then? How ridiculous is it to drive a 4WD into the desert, full of electronics that can’t be repaired and where a single chip can cost 300$ and has to be shipped from mainland America... So yep, with car computerization they reduced the lifespan from 30 to 12 years, and with infotainment they’ll reduce it to 8 years. Same length as a Tesla warranty.
- potta_coffee 7y ago
  It kinda depends on the manufacturer. Some have done a better job than others.
- criddell 7y ago
  Vehicle manufacturers are just giving customers what they want. My family recently bought a new car (a Volvo FWIW) and for the first time we really didn't care about horsepower or fuel efficiency or anything really related to vehicle performance. It was all about the electronics and safety features.
  - PorterDuff 7y ago
    "Vehicle manufacturers are just giving customers what they want." ...and they're giving it to them good and hard.
- HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
  This is exactly why, instead of buying a new vehicle, I'm repairing my 15 year-old one myself. I hate the thought of something so expensive and resource-intensive being thought of as disposable. That, and I hate car payments :-)
- jobu 7y ago
  There has to be a balance. Electronic fuel injection (EFI) is far more reliable and adaptable than even the best carburetors. Electronic safety systems may have reduced some of the longevity of a vehicle, but the alternative is higher chance of injury or death.
  - Zardoz84 7y ago
    I have a car with EFI and it's 28 years old. We can the best of both worlds. Simple and reliable electronics, instead of a full computer running Android.
    - tonyarkles 7y ago
      I’ve got a 91 Ranger (EFI) kicking around here and have the exact same experience. It has been nothing but reliable in the last 5 years I’ve had it. A couple small mechanical things that had to get changed, but electronically there has been zero complaints.
  - PorterDuff 7y ago
    I think that the EFI argument is something of a red herring, no one is suggesting a return to the Quadrajet. OTOH, EFI can be done as a modular (and replaceable) product rather than as part of monolithic whole-vehicle design, but that last bit of goodness or regulatory need is likely not met. I just think of it all as being Peak ICE. The last generation of piston engines is going to be crazy complex and probably deserve to be usurped by it's battery-powered successors.
    - photojosh 7y ago
      > The last generation of piston engines is going to be crazy complex and probably deserve to be usurped by it's battery-powered successors. My car-loving boss just got a hybrid RAV4, and he absolutely loves it; combines the best features of both with (presumably) the only downside of lower maintenance (but even then there's less wear-and-tear on the ICE side). I suspect we will see quite a slow, gradual transition through hybrids to battery-only. Of course, this is Australia (and I'd imagine similar in the US and Canada) where it's more common to drive long distances.
- PorterDuff 7y ago
  "where a single chip can cost 300$ and has to be shipped from mainland America..." that assumes that the failed part is even available. I'd sure be irritated to have the controller board for a Cadillac XLR convertible top fail and have to shop junk yards, no doubt the wrecking yards are hip to small things of value that they can store on a shelf somewhere. To be fair, I know more than one purchasing guy, usually in boutique electronic product companies, who spend a fair amount of their time tracking down obsoleted parts on eBay to repair or build one last batch of a metal box with circuit boards inside. It's just the nature of modern times I guess, but luckily we can often pick the era we want to live in in our personal lives. I just need to stock up on old Thinkpads, avoid home automation, and carefully choose any car purchases.
  - boznz 7y ago
    Unfortunately there are very few car electronic controllers made in the last 20 years where you can replace modules without re-coding them... a $2 part from the scrap yard is useless without the manufactures re-coding software and a couple of hours at the dealership. Unless you're rich I doubt there will be any "classics" from 1990 onwards you can maintain yourself.
bo1024 7y ago
Completely agree, especially on the second paragraph - just like how 'smart' TVs ship a long-lasting high quality panel with an obsolete/user-hostile operating system. On the first paragraph, I thought I'd read this battle is mostly lost already, not with respect to Android, but car software in general is far more intertwined and less robust than you'd think prudent.
- hobofan 7y ago
  > just like how 'smart' TVs ship a long-lasting high quality panel with an obsolete/user-hostile operating system Who cares? Just ignore the "smart" part, don't give it any Internet access and handle the smart part yourself via so HDMI dongle like a Chromecast.
  - losteric 7y ago
    You're still paying for the garbage you don't use
  - ytwySXpMbS 7y ago
    It can be quite hard to ignore the smart part. For example, my TV can't even display the input selection menu properly. It moves about as it tries to load an ad, then can't.
    - Spare_account 7y ago
      Which TV? It has adverts in the system menus? Also, how did you block it from displaying them? Is it completely offline or maybe you're using a pihole?
      - elbrian 7y ago
        2019 model-year Samsung QLED sets come with ads baked into the UI.
        bbarnett 7y ago
jasonwatkinspdx 7y ago
Yes. It's obviously common practice to partition systems in cars. The infotainment is not running the ABS or airbags. That said, the people who work on infotainment have to take safety very seriously too. Even just static visual imagery can cause distracting optical effects if it's high contrast or the right shape/pattern. Anything with motion or audio presents very real risks. If you take the 30k foot view, tbh, the auto world seems kinda nuts. We buy objects that are a sizeable fraction of our annual income if not more, that very rapidly depreciate, and then 20 years later we toss them out as scrap metal to recyclers.
- mjevans 7y ago
  There are many parts to cars. Don't forget the basic ones: exposed to the elements for decades, driven across uneven bumpy bits, even the 'consumable' parts also degrade fairly rapidly... For an electric, I'm unsure on the long-term life of motors. Batteries are the main consumable, but are actually safer and simpler compared to hot oil and fuel separated by thin gaskets. Still, even with the consumables exempted, I'm not sure that cars actually seeing road-salts in the winter and scorching sun in the summer last that long (40 years seems optimistic, and I know I HATE being behind any 'classic' ICE that no longer has to pass emissions).
r00fus 7y ago
> but that you are binding technology that obsoletes quickly with an expensive product that should last 10-20 years. Manufacturers want you to have reasons to upgrade. Manufactured obsolescence is absolutely a feature to them. Don't want to keep driving your sufficient vehicle after 5 because "it's insecure and doesn't run the latest OS"? That's a guaranteed revenue stream if they can get enough of the other manufacturers go to along.

alexis_fr 7y ago

The same was probably said 15 years ago about the computerization of the car engine and their rapid deprecation. Did the average lifespan of a car decrease since then? How ridiculous is it to drive a 4WD into the desert, full of electronics that can’t be repaired and where a single chip can cost 300$ and has to be shipped from mainland America... So yep, with car computerization they reduced the lifespan from 30 to 12 years, and with infotainment they’ll reduce it to 8 years. Same length as a Tesla warranty.

potta_coffee 7y ago
It kinda depends on the manufacturer. Some have done a better job than others.
criddell 7y ago
Vehicle manufacturers are just giving customers what they want. My family recently bought a new car (a Volvo FWIW) and for the first time we really didn't care about horsepower or fuel efficiency or anything really related to vehicle performance. It was all about the electronics and safety features.
- PorterDuff 7y ago
  "Vehicle manufacturers are just giving customers what they want." ...and they're giving it to them good and hard.
HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
This is exactly why, instead of buying a new vehicle, I'm repairing my 15 year-old one myself. I hate the thought of something so expensive and resource-intensive being thought of as disposable. That, and I hate car payments :-)
jobu 7y ago
There has to be a balance. Electronic fuel injection (EFI) is far more reliable and adaptable than even the best carburetors. Electronic safety systems may have reduced some of the longevity of a vehicle, but the alternative is higher chance of injury or death.
- Zardoz84 7y ago
  I have a car with EFI and it's 28 years old. We can the best of both worlds. Simple and reliable electronics, instead of a full computer running Android.
  - tonyarkles 7y ago
    I’ve got a 91 Ranger (EFI) kicking around here and have the exact same experience. It has been nothing but reliable in the last 5 years I’ve had it. A couple small mechanical things that had to get changed, but electronically there has been zero complaints.
- PorterDuff 7y ago
  I think that the EFI argument is something of a red herring, no one is suggesting a return to the Quadrajet. OTOH, EFI can be done as a modular (and replaceable) product rather than as part of monolithic whole-vehicle design, but that last bit of goodness or regulatory need is likely not met. I just think of it all as being Peak ICE. The last generation of piston engines is going to be crazy complex and probably deserve to be usurped by it's battery-powered successors.
  - photojosh 7y ago
    > The last generation of piston engines is going to be crazy complex and probably deserve to be usurped by it's battery-powered successors. My car-loving boss just got a hybrid RAV4, and he absolutely loves it; combines the best features of both with (presumably) the only downside of lower maintenance (but even then there's less wear-and-tear on the ICE side). I suspect we will see quite a slow, gradual transition through hybrids to battery-only. Of course, this is Australia (and I'd imagine similar in the US and Canada) where it's more common to drive long distances.
PorterDuff 7y ago
"where a single chip can cost 300$ and has to be shipped from mainland America..." that assumes that the failed part is even available. I'd sure be irritated to have the controller board for a Cadillac XLR convertible top fail and have to shop junk yards, no doubt the wrecking yards are hip to small things of value that they can store on a shelf somewhere. To be fair, I know more than one purchasing guy, usually in boutique electronic product companies, who spend a fair amount of their time tracking down obsoleted parts on eBay to repair or build one last batch of a metal box with circuit boards inside. It's just the nature of modern times I guess, but luckily we can often pick the era we want to live in in our personal lives. I just need to stock up on old Thinkpads, avoid home automation, and carefully choose any car purchases.
- boznz 7y ago
  Unfortunately there are very few car electronic controllers made in the last 20 years where you can replace modules without re-coding them... a $2 part from the scrap yard is useless without the manufactures re-coding software and a couple of hours at the dealership. Unless you're rich I doubt there will be any "classics" from 1990 onwards you can maintain yourself.

bo1024 7y ago

Completely agree, especially on the second paragraph - just like how 'smart' TVs ship a long-lasting high quality panel with an obsolete/user-hostile operating system. On the first paragraph, I thought I'd read this battle is mostly lost already, not with respect to Android, but car software in general is far more intertwined and less robust than you'd think prudent.

hobofan 7y ago
> just like how 'smart' TVs ship a long-lasting high quality panel with an obsolete/user-hostile operating system Who cares? Just ignore the "smart" part, don't give it any Internet access and handle the smart part yourself via so HDMI dongle like a Chromecast.
- losteric 7y ago
  You're still paying for the garbage you don't use
- ytwySXpMbS 7y ago
  It can be quite hard to ignore the smart part. For example, my TV can't even display the input selection menu properly. It moves about as it tries to load an ad, then can't.
  - Spare_account 7y ago
    Which TV? It has adverts in the system menus? Also, how did you block it from displaying them? Is it completely offline or maybe you're using a pihole?
    - elbrian 7y ago
      2019 model-year Samsung QLED sets come with ads baked into the UI.
      - bbarnett 7y ago

jasonwatkinspdx 7y ago

Yes. It's obviously common practice to partition systems in cars. The infotainment is not running the ABS or airbags. That said, the people who work on infotainment have to take safety very seriously too. Even just static visual imagery can cause distracting optical effects if it's high contrast or the right shape/pattern. Anything with motion or audio presents very real risks. If you take the 30k foot view, tbh, the auto world seems kinda nuts. We buy objects that are a sizeable fraction of our annual income if not more, that very rapidly depreciate, and then 20 years later we toss them out as scrap metal to recyclers.

mjevans 7y ago
There are many parts to cars. Don't forget the basic ones: exposed to the elements for decades, driven across uneven bumpy bits, even the 'consumable' parts also degrade fairly rapidly... For an electric, I'm unsure on the long-term life of motors. Batteries are the main consumable, but are actually safer and simpler compared to hot oil and fuel separated by thin gaskets. Still, even with the consumables exempted, I'm not sure that cars actually seeing road-salts in the winter and scorching sun in the summer last that long (40 years seems optimistic, and I know I HATE being behind any 'classic' ICE that no longer has to pass emissions).

r00fus 7y ago

> but that you are binding technology that obsoletes quickly with an expensive product that should last 10-20 years. Manufacturers want you to have reasons to upgrade. Manufactured obsolescence is absolutely a feature to them. Don't want to keep driving your sufficient vehicle after 5 because "it's insecure and doesn't run the latest OS"? That's a guaranteed revenue stream if they can get enough of the other manufacturers go to along.