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>Isn't progressivism basically forcing people to change? Some might see that as a nearly violent act against their freedom. But really, what else is there to pr

by cco 7y ago

>Isn't progressivism basically forcing people to change? Some might see that as a nearly violent act against their freedom. But really, what else is there to progressivism than "you must change"? Does the above re-wording make the problem with your characterization more obvious? I hope that it is obvious that both "progressive" and "conservative" philosophies are qualified by necessary and persuasive reasons to do one thing or the other. You should not change the status quo unless there is a good reason to do so, changing things carries the risk of making the current situation worse. Obviously the reverse is also true, you should always critically assess the current status quo because it may not be working as intended or has outsized negative impact on certain groups/institutions and we should change it. I think your sentence is needlessly inflammatory, you're essentially straw manning the idea of conservative when we should always do our best to assume good faith in hackernews commenters until proven otherwise.

TomMarius 7y ago
The thing is, I am not a progressive in your understanding and by English sense of the word and I fully agree with your rewordization. In my country, progressives are comparable to US libertarians. What you list as positive traits seem to be just rational politics. That's how it's known in my country, not as something conservative or else. So is that conservatism, being rational and pragmatic instead of... Irrational as progressives? Or is the key message of conservatism something else? The word conservative suggest a stop of change. I thought the message of conservatism would be more related to that.
- astine 7y ago
  "Or is the key message of conservatism something else?" It depends on the conservative. It's a broad camp. Some people who call themselves 'conservative' are really just super reactionary people who hate any kind of change while others are reasonable people who want to be careful. US politics is highly partisan right now so there is a lot of conflict that has more to do with team or tribal affiliation (republican or democrat) than with actual ideological or philosophical differences. Traditionally, though, conservatism as a school of thought originates with the writings of Edmund Burke on the French Revolution, where he pointed out, not that social and political change were bad in themselves, but that the Revolution in his opinion, was going too far too fast, breaking with too many traditions, and was thereby sowing the seeds of its own destruction. He argued that because the French Revolutionaries were attempting to replace widely held (in France at the time) principles of political legitimacy with novel principles of the political legitimacy, that politics in France would break down into practical power politics and would result in a military dictatorship. His prediction turned out correct, though people still debate his reasoning. So, in this sense, conservatism is the idea that traditional political institutions have value because they are traditional political institutions. Change is not inherently bad, but must be undertaken carefully because if you overtly discredit the current institutions you court instability and the new system might not be better.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    I see. My country is 30 years old, post communist, so this is a thought I never had. Thank you.
- cco 7y ago
  It is very difficult to talk about both words given the amount of meaning that has been layered on top of both over the years. Generally conservative just means you are cautious around change, whereas progressives are much less cautious and more willing to experiment with new changes.

by cco 7y ago

TomMarius 7y ago

The thing is, I am not a progressive in your understanding and by English sense of the word and I fully agree with your rewordization. In my country, progressives are comparable to US libertarians. What you list as positive traits seem to be just rational politics. That's how it's known in my country, not as something conservative or else. So is that conservatism, being rational and pragmatic instead of... Irrational as progressives? Or is the key message of conservatism something else? The word conservative suggest a stop of change. I thought the message of conservatism would be more related to that.

astine 7y ago
"Or is the key message of conservatism something else?" It depends on the conservative. It's a broad camp. Some people who call themselves 'conservative' are really just super reactionary people who hate any kind of change while others are reasonable people who want to be careful. US politics is highly partisan right now so there is a lot of conflict that has more to do with team or tribal affiliation (republican or democrat) than with actual ideological or philosophical differences. Traditionally, though, conservatism as a school of thought originates with the writings of Edmund Burke on the French Revolution, where he pointed out, not that social and political change were bad in themselves, but that the Revolution in his opinion, was going too far too fast, breaking with too many traditions, and was thereby sowing the seeds of its own destruction. He argued that because the French Revolutionaries were attempting to replace widely held (in France at the time) principles of political legitimacy with novel principles of the political legitimacy, that politics in France would break down into practical power politics and would result in a military dictatorship. His prediction turned out correct, though people still debate his reasoning. So, in this sense, conservatism is the idea that traditional political institutions have value because they are traditional political institutions. Change is not inherently bad, but must be undertaken carefully because if you overtly discredit the current institutions you court instability and the new system might not be better.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  I see. My country is 30 years old, post communist, so this is a thought I never had. Thank you.
cco 7y ago
It is very difficult to talk about both words given the amount of meaning that has been layered on top of both over the years. Generally conservative just means you are cautious around change, whereas progressives are much less cautious and more willing to experiment with new changes.