7 ms·

As a consumer, the digital e-book is inherently more valuable than a physical book. I often re-read or consult books (or chapters) I've read on a whim. If I ha

by avar 7y ago

As a consumer, the digital e-book is inherently more valuable than a physical book. I often re-read or consult books (or chapters) I've read on a whim. If I had to e.g. take my library on vacations to do the same thing I can trivially do on a Kindle I'd need to travel with a minivan full of books. There's all sorts of other value, like search functions, not having to fill my house or storage box with books, and avoiding that awkward every-other-page-sucks while reading a book laying sideways in bed.

nikbackm 7y ago
Those are properties of the e-reader rather than the e-book itself, in other words, not something you should be paying for when buying the book.
kelnage 7y ago
But such a back and forth that could go on forever. Many e-books vendors frequently reduce their value by limiting access to a specific app/reader, or limit how useful the functionality you describe can be. For example, search is very much restricted within Kindle (e.g. I can't search for words across my entire library, I have to go into a specific book). And whilst it is true that some people are limited in how much physical space they have access to, it is certainly not universal. Hence putting a hard price on this functionality is nigh impossible - whereas re-sale value is often easier to estimate and clearly tangible to the consumer. Claiming that they are equal is certainly not clear to me.
- avar 7y ago
  I'm not claiming they're equal, I'm pointing out that the GP's "since I'm getting so much less, why should I pay the same price" point is subjective, and not a statement of fact. Sure, some people prefer hardcopies, good for them. But claiming that e-books being priced similarly is some market failure is taking it too far, for some of us it seems perfectly reasonable. If e-books were priced higher (even as much as 50% more) I'd still buy them over physical copies.
  - fragmede 7y ago
    The "market" has decided that Amazon deserves a near-total monopoly on the e-book reader market, which allows them to unfairly pressure publishers who have no realistic alternative if they actually want online sales. (Publishers are not a fan of Kindle unlimited.) Just recently Amazon released a book ahead of embargo and they will face zero repercussion for doing so. A market that had more than one way to "publish" books online would be a different ballgame than the one we're playing now
    - JetSpiegel 7y ago
      > Amazon released a book ahead of embargo and they will face zero repercussion for doing so. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49592021 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49592021
  - potta_coffee 7y ago
    It may be subjective but if a big enough market segment has the same subjective opinion, then it becomes "reality".
- eyegor 7y ago
  > Many e-books vendors frequently reduce their value by limiting access to a specific app/reader, or limit how useful the functionality you describe can be Yup, this is why I'm a fan of the likebook/boox type e readers. They all run stripped down versions of Android and many of them have SD card slots too. I use the likebook Mars (~$200) as my daily reader only (bigger ones are nice if your budget allows) and it is so much nicer than the Kindles imo. Default reader can handle all formats, you can dump your own fonts and dictionaries on it, and you can run the Kindle, kobo, libby, etc apps if you want to (since you can use Google play). Ofc being a cheap Chinese e reader it isn't exactly something that can run real apps at more than a couple fps but it's great for static content like books.
heinrichhartman 7y ago
I feel exactly the opposite. I hate reading stuff on screens. - It hurts my eyes when I do this for hours. - It comes with lots of distractions. - Digital Annotations are a PITA - Zapping through a book works much better in hard-copy If I am supposed to spent 1h+ reading your content. You better make sure I can buy a printed copy.
- mellosouls 7y ago
  If you are reading on a proper* e-reader, eyestrain shouldn't be an issue. *ie classic Kindle with e-ink or similar, not a tablet like iPad/Android equivalent or the annoyingly named Amazon "Kindle" Fire etc. Not great for tech manuals, admittedly
  - eyegor 7y ago
    Actually if you're willing to pay for it, you can buy 10+" eink screens with wacom digitizers on top (drawing pen support). They're quite good for tech papers and manuals because they're a similar size to real paper, no eye strain, you can draw notes directly on them, and ofc you can cram tons of papers/textbooks/manuals into something that weighs next to nothing. Edit: if you're curious, look into the likebook mimas as a starting point. There are other options, that just happens to be the one I've used.
    - uneekname 7y ago
      As a student that looks like exactly what I'm looking for, but I'm never going to shell out $400 for one when I can get an early-gen Kindle for free. Really hoping we will see prices decrease for higher-end e-ink displays.
      - pgeorgi 7y ago
        > Really hoping we will see prices decrease for higher-end e-ink displays. Unlikely to happen: similar to silicon, eink's yield (that is, amount of parts produced with no errors) goes down quickly (quadratic if not cubic, I forgot) with increasing size. A system based on lots of eink chiplets with small enough margins that you can tile them could scale up, but the margins are also a difficult area.
johnchristopher 7y ago
> I often re-read or consult books (or chapters) I've read on a whim. If I had to e.g. take my library on vacations to do the same thing I can trivially do on a Kindle I'd need to travel with a minivan full of books. Isn't that a FOMO argument, though ? As a consumer the advantage of e-books are: ease of organization and ease of buying, no page flipping sounds in bed, ease of transportation. But what I really want ? A real, thick book, with something like 200-400 sheets made up of magical e-ink so I can have a physical map of the book I am reading.
- cheschire 7y ago
  Imagine a ribbed touch sensitive bezel on a regular single-screen e-reader. When you rub your thumb across it, it flips the pages in the reader by a proportional amount.
- nirvdrum 7y ago
  A multi-page e-ink book would be nice. I love my Kindle for certain types of reading, but when I read, I like to flip back to previous sections. Search doesn't work because I rarely know verbatim what I'm looking for or the search terms are flooded with answers from the entire book, when I really want it narrowed down to a particular area. With physical books, I just remember roughly how far into the book it was and can jump back there and start searching. I'd love to successfully replicate that with a Kindle.
  - toast0 7y ago
    Can you use the table of contents on your kindle? It's not the same, of course, and some books don't have a usable chapter system (too many or too few), but if you've got an idea of where you want to go, it should get you close.
    - nirvdrum 7y ago
      Unfortunately, I really only know roughly how thick the stack of pages was. I realize it's an imprecise metric. And I might be able to convert to a rough percentage and figure out a page number from there. But, then the page turning is just slow enough to make rapid scanning like that annoying.
JackFaker 7y ago
Are you arguing that convenience function enabled by the digital format is more valuable than ownership of a physical good?
Fnoord 7y ago
I like both. I'd like to think physical and digital books each have their pros and cons. I try to be pragmatic about the issue. Thinking back about school I remember the heavy weight of the backpack. That can be more efficient, I thought back then. Same with vacation however I don't want to unlock my ereader for border patrol, as a matter of principle. Not sure if we are at that point already. The point is, each have also privacy implications.
potta_coffee 7y ago
You can say it's more valuable, but not to me. I get almost zero enjoyment from reading digitally. I don't know why but paper books feel better. I don't like the interface on my kindle for actually reading. As a device it's good but as a book, it just sucks. Also, I'm usually only reading one or two books at a time, so I don't need an entire library with me. I do use the kindle for technical books, because those are boring to ready anyway.

by avar 7y ago

nikbackm 7y ago

Those are properties of the e-reader rather than the e-book itself, in other words, not something you should be paying for when buying the book.

kelnage 7y ago

But such a back and forth that could go on forever. Many e-books vendors frequently reduce their value by limiting access to a specific app/reader, or limit how useful the functionality you describe can be. For example, search is very much restricted within Kindle (e.g. I can't search for words across my entire library, I have to go into a specific book). And whilst it is true that some people are limited in how much physical space they have access to, it is certainly not universal. Hence putting a hard price on this functionality is nigh impossible - whereas re-sale value is often easier to estimate and clearly tangible to the consumer. Claiming that they are equal is certainly not clear to me.

avar 7y ago
I'm not claiming they're equal, I'm pointing out that the GP's "since I'm getting so much less, why should I pay the same price" point is subjective, and not a statement of fact. Sure, some people prefer hardcopies, good for them. But claiming that e-books being priced similarly is some market failure is taking it too far, for some of us it seems perfectly reasonable. If e-books were priced higher (even as much as 50% more) I'd still buy them over physical copies.
- fragmede 7y ago
  The "market" has decided that Amazon deserves a near-total monopoly on the e-book reader market, which allows them to unfairly pressure publishers who have no realistic alternative if they actually want online sales. (Publishers are not a fan of Kindle unlimited.) Just recently Amazon released a book ahead of embargo and they will face zero repercussion for doing so. A market that had more than one way to "publish" books online would be a different ballgame than the one we're playing now
  - JetSpiegel 7y ago
    > Amazon released a book ahead of embargo and they will face zero repercussion for doing so. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49592021 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49592021
- potta_coffee 7y ago
  It may be subjective but if a big enough market segment has the same subjective opinion, then it becomes "reality".
eyegor 7y ago
> Many e-books vendors frequently reduce their value by limiting access to a specific app/reader, or limit how useful the functionality you describe can be Yup, this is why I'm a fan of the likebook/boox type e readers. They all run stripped down versions of Android and many of them have SD card slots too. I use the likebook Mars (~$200) as my daily reader only (bigger ones are nice if your budget allows) and it is so much nicer than the Kindles imo. Default reader can handle all formats, you can dump your own fonts and dictionaries on it, and you can run the Kindle, kobo, libby, etc apps if you want to (since you can use Google play). Ofc being a cheap Chinese e reader it isn't exactly something that can run real apps at more than a couple fps but it's great for static content like books.

heinrichhartman 7y ago

I feel exactly the opposite. I hate reading stuff on screens. - It hurts my eyes when I do this for hours. - It comes with lots of distractions. - Digital Annotations are a PITA - Zapping through a book works much better in hard-copy If I am supposed to spent 1h+ reading your content. You better make sure I can buy a printed copy.

mellosouls 7y ago
If you are reading on a proper* e-reader, eyestrain shouldn't be an issue. *ie classic Kindle with e-ink or similar, not a tablet like iPad/Android equivalent or the annoyingly named Amazon "Kindle" Fire etc. Not great for tech manuals, admittedly
- eyegor 7y ago
  Actually if you're willing to pay for it, you can buy 10+" eink screens with wacom digitizers on top (drawing pen support). They're quite good for tech papers and manuals because they're a similar size to real paper, no eye strain, you can draw notes directly on them, and ofc you can cram tons of papers/textbooks/manuals into something that weighs next to nothing. Edit: if you're curious, look into the likebook mimas as a starting point. There are other options, that just happens to be the one I've used.
  - uneekname 7y ago
    As a student that looks like exactly what I'm looking for, but I'm never going to shell out $400 for one when I can get an early-gen Kindle for free. Really hoping we will see prices decrease for higher-end e-ink displays.
    - pgeorgi 7y ago
      > Really hoping we will see prices decrease for higher-end e-ink displays. Unlikely to happen: similar to silicon, eink's yield (that is, amount of parts produced with no errors) goes down quickly (quadratic if not cubic, I forgot) with increasing size. A system based on lots of eink chiplets with small enough margins that you can tile them could scale up, but the margins are also a difficult area.

johnchristopher 7y ago

> I often re-read or consult books (or chapters) I've read on a whim. If I had to e.g. take my library on vacations to do the same thing I can trivially do on a Kindle I'd need to travel with a minivan full of books. Isn't that a FOMO argument, though ? As a consumer the advantage of e-books are: ease of organization and ease of buying, no page flipping sounds in bed, ease of transportation. But what I really want ? A real, thick book, with something like 200-400 sheets made up of magical e-ink so I can have a physical map of the book I am reading.

cheschire 7y ago
Imagine a ribbed touch sensitive bezel on a regular single-screen e-reader. When you rub your thumb across it, it flips the pages in the reader by a proportional amount.
nirvdrum 7y ago
A multi-page e-ink book would be nice. I love my Kindle for certain types of reading, but when I read, I like to flip back to previous sections. Search doesn't work because I rarely know verbatim what I'm looking for or the search terms are flooded with answers from the entire book, when I really want it narrowed down to a particular area. With physical books, I just remember roughly how far into the book it was and can jump back there and start searching. I'd love to successfully replicate that with a Kindle.
- toast0 7y ago
  Can you use the table of contents on your kindle? It's not the same, of course, and some books don't have a usable chapter system (too many or too few), but if you've got an idea of where you want to go, it should get you close.
  - nirvdrum 7y ago
    Unfortunately, I really only know roughly how thick the stack of pages was. I realize it's an imprecise metric. And I might be able to convert to a rough percentage and figure out a page number from there. But, then the page turning is just slow enough to make rapid scanning like that annoying.

JackFaker 7y ago

Are you arguing that convenience function enabled by the digital format is more valuable than ownership of a physical good?

Fnoord 7y ago

I like both. I'd like to think physical and digital books each have their pros and cons. I try to be pragmatic about the issue. Thinking back about school I remember the heavy weight of the backpack. That can be more efficient, I thought back then. Same with vacation however I don't want to unlock my ereader for border patrol, as a matter of principle. Not sure if we are at that point already. The point is, each have also privacy implications.

potta_coffee 7y ago

You can say it's more valuable, but not to me. I get almost zero enjoyment from reading digitally. I don't know why but paper books feel better. I don't like the interface on my kindle for actually reading. As a device it's good but as a book, it just sucks. Also, I'm usually only reading one or two books at a time, so I don't need an entire library with me. I do use the kindle for technical books, because those are boring to ready anyway.