5 ms·

Self discipline is one of the psychology things which might not actually be a thing though. Often cited in this sort of discussion is the "marshmallow test" whi

by gexla 7y ago

Self discipline is one of the psychology things which might not actually be a thing though. Often cited in this sort of discussion is the "marshmallow test" which has been found to be BS. Maybe there's something to willpower, but the discussion is stinky right now because of the replication issues. Same for "flow" which is another smell this article and related discussions have. I find that I can be incredibly self disciplined when I setup my environment so that I don't have to fight myself. How do I fight distractions from my phone when I'm out with friends? I don't bring my phone. And yet somehow I always manage to meet with people at the time and place we decide on. I know not everyone can do this, I'm just using it as an example. A feeling of a lack of self discipline is a symptom, much like procrastination. It's a mess of things all clumped together like a rats nest of wires. Everyone has their answer to procrastination (the book is in progress!) but beating procrastination isn't a skill because it isn't the root problem. Much like a headache could mean that you are going to die from cancer or you might just need some rest. If you feel you have procrastination problems, it's because something broke upstream and now you are blaming it on procrastination. ETA: Herding my own actions is about preparation and personal story telling. If I setup a clear path for the next day and get good sleep, then it will work. If I get a bad night of sleep and I'm unorganized, then it's going to be a disaster and I'm going to complain about procrastination. If I see a cake which looks good and I have a weak reason not to eat it, I'm going to eat the thing. If I manage to convince myself to join the cult of low-carbs, then I wouldn't be caught dead with a piece of cake. If I'm working with people who are laid back, then I become laid back. If I'm working with people who are ultra-competitive, then I become competitive. It's all about pouring the kool-aid and then convincing myself to drink it. ;)

raverbashing 7y ago
I think you summed it up pretty nicely, I might have even used the same words. But in a sense, procrastination is "natural" as much as the taste of sugar is natural, but if you allow yourself to be carried out by it then it becomes a problem.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Which wouldn't be a problem if sugar was still scarce. It's the abundance of food and distractions which messes us up.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    Correct, that's the reason why discipline is important, which absolutely does not mean shutting yourself completely from those things
    - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
      Yet that just doesn't work for many (most?) people. Even for those that claim it does I'm sceptical. I work at home for myself, every morning I sit at my desk and start coding. I could claim I'm disciplined however it seems far more likely to me that I just built a habit of coding in the mornings.
      - raverbashing 7y ago
        I agree, there are a lot of people who have difficulties handling it (and a lot of crappy advice)
manigandham 7y ago
Isn’t setting your environment an act of discipline in itself?
- gexla 7y ago
  Again, the idea of self discipline right now is stinky for the reasons I mentioned above. Self discipline is more about going against what your monkey brain wants to do. It's not about just any action. If you don't want to get out of bed and you do it anyways, then a book writer might call that "self discipline" and write an article about it. On the other hand, maybe you have been laying in bed so long that you need to get up to avoid bed sores. In that case, getting out of bed isn't self-discipline. So, I guess you would have to assume that "setting your environment" is something you don't feel like doing. Like I said, if that's the case then there is likely something off further upstream. Like maybe your schedule says you should get out of bed but really you should stay in bed because an idiot (you) didn't pencil in enough sleep in the free template.
iopq 7y ago
The root of the problem is not enough caffeine. I don't have the energy to discipline myself until I have enough of it. I tried quitting caffeine. It resulted in three months of staying in bed. It's just too easy to play music and read stuff all day when you don't have the energy to get out of bed.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Yet caffeine disturbs my sleep and hence my work. It's almost like we are all individuals.
- playing_colours 7y ago
  A usual advice here on HN is to check on ADHD with a good doctor. You can decide then if you want to jump on medications, but I can share that it improves the lives of many people.
  - mial 7y ago
    Medications can help temporarily, but then tolerance appears and you need to up the dose. I think they are mostly helpful in the range of a few months up to a year, as a crutch to help someone sort their life out (professionally and/or academically), and also in terms of setting up efficient organizational techniques, developing helpful practices for focusing (meditation, exercising, diet). It helped me a lot in this way, I was then able to quit ADHD meds while retaining a much improved focus ability.
    - Bjartr 7y ago
      I'll throw my own anecdote into the ring here. As a person who's been on ADHD meds for 20+ years I've noticed that although tolerance does build up, it doesn't build up to the point that medication is ineffective, just less effective. Also, fairly short periods of no medication (a few days) can go a long way towards resetting tolerance to a meaningful degree. Despite being on these medications for decades, being on or off them continues to be huge factory in my day-to-day ability to execute tasks of any kind.
playing_colours 7y ago
The phenomenon of self discipline is known and discussed way before modern psychology is born. Do we all know that some people surrender quickly to physical or mental challenges, and some last longer? Our brain cries at us to stop doing challenging things, stop pushups, stop working on a hard problem. Self discipline in my definition is how you react on those brain calls. Can you shut them down for a while, or will you find an excuse to stop? Currently I am experimenting on myself, by reflecting and talking to my brain under stress (the best exercise I found for it is the plank). You should have a strong inner reason why you want to tolerate suffering. Kool-aid, external motivation helps, but up to some point. When I am suffering trying to keep plank it helps to clearly remind myself why I am doing that.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Yet hear you are, procrastinating with all of us.
  - playing_colours 7y ago
    You comment actually touches some interesting points. First, one procrastinates only if they decided they should be doing something else at this moment. I am now relaxed and interested in spending some time on HN - you can actually learn something here as well. Second, being constantly busy, optimising, and improving is a new fashion and decease. It's an unrealistic demand that causes anxiety. You also need to relax, reflect, play, do nothing. https://youtu.be/3qHkcs3kG44?t=1102 https://youtu.be/3qHkcs3kG44?t=1102 Third, it also depends on what is your life goal - be happy, be super successful. I am happy to spend some time on HN, and I do not stress myself over it.
alexis_fr 7y ago
It matches my experience much better than the « self-motivation » theory. If you have self-motivation, it’s because you are in the correct chemistry, brainwise. Maybe you are loved, maybe you eat well, maybe you live in a building that has proper O2 venting. But being able to motivate yourself for work and sports and friends is the result. When one says « Motivate yourself and all will be better! », they are just saying that they are in a fortunate situation and they don’t see why others wouldn’t be. It’s similar to a rich man telling a poor man: « Spend and you will be rich, that’s what I do all the time! » No, you are not « able to go through tough times because of the strength of character» but because you are still well despite temporarily being disappointed. Example: > Self discipline in my definition is how you react on those brain calls. Can you shut them down for a while, or will you find an excuse to stop? Ok, this guy is healthy. Probably loved, probably has expectations for the future, he probably has reasons to work hard, because he gains hard when he works hard. > Currently I am experimenting on myself, « Currently I am feeling good, so I can spend this extraordinary energy into something that will make me even healthier » > by reflecting and talking to my brain under stress I assure you this is not how the brain works. Basically he has hope for the future, so he can sell hope to his brain. It is extremely important for the future of USA, because USA is currently experimenting a « Boy Crisis » (from the title of the book) where men can’t get motivation, and they spiral into drugs. Particularly in the mid-west, but it’s a trend in the whole Western world. That’s why some experts are screaming at the dangerosity of having anti-white-male policies in pretty much all areas (work, NGOs, etc), it’s because, I don’t know whether this is the root cause, but at least it increases and compounds the problem. And finally, that’s why a psy is also able to evaluate what your remaining resources are, and use those to make yourself start a project where you will receive more love and hope (or exchange more love), but that is entirely different from the « be more motivated so you have more energy » advice.
- playing_colours 7y ago
  >> it’s because you are in the correct chemistry, brainwise. Well, we all are born different, physically and mentally. Your argument sounds to me a bit like that one doesn't have a choice. Basically, I am born lazy, so I cannot change myself, it's my destiny to stick with low goals. >> I assure you this is not how the brain works. Basically he has hope for the future, so he can sell hope to his brain. Can you please elaborate more on that? I do not think we have a right clear picture now how our brain works, motivation, willpower, discipline, whatever. I can agree that if you decided that you are limited by nature, and also if you think you cannot find your goals and sell to your brain - you will stay where you are. In the end, we are what we think we are.
hos234 7y ago
I think people who have more energy (ala endurance athletes) look more disciplined. Also what kind of energy you need to be a President, Chess Grandmaster or a Tennis Grand Slam winner is different. They all are called displined though. People with disabilities and mental health issues who do well are usually those with high energy levels or are in environments that produce energy more than drain energy(distractions/triggers etc play a role here). You can also see it in areas of poverty. People who do well are usually called more driven, ambitious etc which basically again goes back to energy levels. Stephen King definitely has more energy than GRRM. But Martin has proved you can be as distracted as you want and still suceed if you have an imagination and are social.
wincy 7y ago
The marshmallow test is weird anyway. The other day we happened to have a bag of marshmallows so I asked my daughter if she’d like one marshmallow now or two after doing a chore. Surprise surprise, she gleefully did the chore and got two marshmallows. What does that mean? That she’s a hard worker? That she understands the value of waiting to have a bigger reward in the future? I don’t know.
- gerbilly 7y ago
  Test it on 30-40 kids instead and then get back to us. You sample size is too small :-)
- kthejoker2 7y ago
  That's not actually the marshmallow test. The marshmallow test is to see if she can wait 15 minutes alone in a room with a marshmallow without eating it in return for 2 marshmallows. Nothing to do with hard work (in fact, it's about having no distractions at all), its purely about self discipline (setting aside whether it's valid psychology or not..)
  - Jill_the_Pill 7y ago
    But then they discovered it is in fact not purely about self-discipline, but rather the degree of trust the child has in the marshmallow promiser. In an uncertain life, it makes sense to take whatever marshmallow is actually here now.
  - wincy 7y ago
    Right. I understand. I was making an admittedly hasty and not very clear commentary about how weirdly artificial the marshmallow test is. If I want to put off gratification in the real world, I busy myself with working on something else. I’d personally take the one marshmallow, then go do something else, and hope my daughter would too. My time is too valuable to be sitting around waiting for marshmallows.
lunchables 7y ago
>much like procrastination. It's a mess of things all clumped together like a rats nest of wires. This is such an important point. I struggle with procrastination and learning the underlying causes are what helped me make huge progress. I cannot recommend "The Now Habit" enough to anyone who struggles with procrastination and guilt that surrounds it. It really was life changing for me. One of, if not the, most important books I've read. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/95708.The_Now_Habit https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/95708.The_Now_Habit
- bigredhdl 7y ago
  Thank you so much for the recommendation. I had checked this audio book out this summer, but procrastinated ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on listening to it. Just checked it out again.
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
>the "marshmallow test" which has been found to be BS. Has it? Is the same true of all the other studies of willpower and ego depletion? The studies of judges with low blood sugar, undergrads being tempted with cookies before doing math problems, all of it? I thought it was pretty settled science. What's the critique of that area of research?
- gexla 7y ago
  The marshmallow test is among the many which has been caught up in the replication crisis. Link below, maybe not the greatest source, but I'm getting distracted from work. ;) https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmallow-test/561779/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmall...
hinkley 7y ago
I learned a couple years ago that there is a much broader spectrum of sensory processing abnormalities besides autism and aspergers that shows up as a kind of hypervigilance. Some think it may be as high as 10% of humans and explained by evolutionary fitness (when a minority of a tribe has the genes, the tribe fares better than when all or none have it). One of the consequences of this is that people get worn down during the day, and their behavior and judgement becomes dysregulated. They start making bad decisions, especially where interpersonal issues are concerned. On reflection, they are not happy with their behavior. A lot of people who label themselves as introverts experience this to some degree. If 10% of people have an experience that is not neurotypical, then you will be surrounded with anecdotes. Also 10% is more than enough to mess with the statistics for a double blind study, especially if they get over or under-represented in the participants. One of the theories of cocaine as a "thinking man's drug" is that it addresses the symptoms of ADHD, which is another group that can be over-represented in some circles IF they can develop adequate coping mechanisms, including but not limited to self-medication. Same could probably be said about depression (cynicism is good in places like QA, security consulting, disaster planning and investigation).

by gexla 7y ago

raverbashing 7y ago

I think you summed it up pretty nicely, I might have even used the same words. But in a sense, procrastination is "natural" as much as the taste of sugar is natural, but if you allow yourself to be carried out by it then it becomes a problem.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Which wouldn't be a problem if sugar was still scarce. It's the abundance of food and distractions which messes us up.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Correct, that's the reason why discipline is important, which absolutely does not mean shutting yourself completely from those things
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Yet that just doesn't work for many (most?) people. Even for those that claim it does I'm sceptical. I work at home for myself, every morning I sit at my desk and start coding. I could claim I'm disciplined however it seems far more likely to me that I just built a habit of coding in the mornings.
    - raverbashing 7y ago
      I agree, there are a lot of people who have difficulties handling it (and a lot of crappy advice)

manigandham 7y ago

Isn’t setting your environment an act of discipline in itself?

gexla 7y ago
Again, the idea of self discipline right now is stinky for the reasons I mentioned above. Self discipline is more about going against what your monkey brain wants to do. It's not about just any action. If you don't want to get out of bed and you do it anyways, then a book writer might call that "self discipline" and write an article about it. On the other hand, maybe you have been laying in bed so long that you need to get up to avoid bed sores. In that case, getting out of bed isn't self-discipline. So, I guess you would have to assume that "setting your environment" is something you don't feel like doing. Like I said, if that's the case then there is likely something off further upstream. Like maybe your schedule says you should get out of bed but really you should stay in bed because an idiot (you) didn't pencil in enough sleep in the free template.

iopq 7y ago

The root of the problem is not enough caffeine. I don't have the energy to discipline myself until I have enough of it. I tried quitting caffeine. It resulted in three months of staying in bed. It's just too easy to play music and read stuff all day when you don't have the energy to get out of bed.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Yet caffeine disturbs my sleep and hence my work. It's almost like we are all individuals.
playing_colours 7y ago
A usual advice here on HN is to check on ADHD with a good doctor. You can decide then if you want to jump on medications, but I can share that it improves the lives of many people.
- mial 7y ago
  Medications can help temporarily, but then tolerance appears and you need to up the dose. I think they are mostly helpful in the range of a few months up to a year, as a crutch to help someone sort their life out (professionally and/or academically), and also in terms of setting up efficient organizational techniques, developing helpful practices for focusing (meditation, exercising, diet). It helped me a lot in this way, I was then able to quit ADHD meds while retaining a much improved focus ability.
  - Bjartr 7y ago
    I'll throw my own anecdote into the ring here. As a person who's been on ADHD meds for 20+ years I've noticed that although tolerance does build up, it doesn't build up to the point that medication is ineffective, just less effective. Also, fairly short periods of no medication (a few days) can go a long way towards resetting tolerance to a meaningful degree. Despite being on these medications for decades, being on or off them continues to be huge factory in my day-to-day ability to execute tasks of any kind.

playing_colours 7y ago

The phenomenon of self discipline is known and discussed way before modern psychology is born. Do we all know that some people surrender quickly to physical or mental challenges, and some last longer? Our brain cries at us to stop doing challenging things, stop pushups, stop working on a hard problem. Self discipline in my definition is how you react on those brain calls. Can you shut them down for a while, or will you find an excuse to stop? Currently I am experimenting on myself, by reflecting and talking to my brain under stress (the best exercise I found for it is the plank). You should have a strong inner reason why you want to tolerate suffering. Kool-aid, external motivation helps, but up to some point. When I am suffering trying to keep plank it helps to clearly remind myself why I am doing that.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Yet hear you are, procrastinating with all of us.
- playing_colours 7y ago
  You comment actually touches some interesting points. First, one procrastinates only if they decided they should be doing something else at this moment. I am now relaxed and interested in spending some time on HN - you can actually learn something here as well. Second, being constantly busy, optimising, and improving is a new fashion and decease. It's an unrealistic demand that causes anxiety. You also need to relax, reflect, play, do nothing. https://youtu.be/3qHkcs3kG44?t=1102 https://youtu.be/3qHkcs3kG44?t=1102 Third, it also depends on what is your life goal - be happy, be super successful. I am happy to spend some time on HN, and I do not stress myself over it.

alexis_fr 7y ago

It matches my experience much better than the « self-motivation » theory. If you have self-motivation, it’s because you are in the correct chemistry, brainwise. Maybe you are loved, maybe you eat well, maybe you live in a building that has proper O2 venting. But being able to motivate yourself for work and sports and friends is the result. When one says « Motivate yourself and all will be better! », they are just saying that they are in a fortunate situation and they don’t see why others wouldn’t be. It’s similar to a rich man telling a poor man: « Spend and you will be rich, that’s what I do all the time! » No, you are not « able to go through tough times because of the strength of character» but because you are still well despite temporarily being disappointed. Example: > Self discipline in my definition is how you react on those brain calls. Can you shut them down for a while, or will you find an excuse to stop? Ok, this guy is healthy. Probably loved, probably has expectations for the future, he probably has reasons to work hard, because he gains hard when he works hard. > Currently I am experimenting on myself, « Currently I am feeling good, so I can spend this extraordinary energy into something that will make me even healthier » > by reflecting and talking to my brain under stress I assure you this is not how the brain works. Basically he has hope for the future, so he can sell hope to his brain. It is extremely important for the future of USA, because USA is currently experimenting a « Boy Crisis » (from the title of the book) where men can’t get motivation, and they spiral into drugs. Particularly in the mid-west, but it’s a trend in the whole Western world. That’s why some experts are screaming at the dangerosity of having anti-white-male policies in pretty much all areas (work, NGOs, etc), it’s because, I don’t know whether this is the root cause, but at least it increases and compounds the problem. And finally, that’s why a psy is also able to evaluate what your remaining resources are, and use those to make yourself start a project where you will receive more love and hope (or exchange more love), but that is entirely different from the « be more motivated so you have more energy » advice.

playing_colours 7y ago
>> it’s because you are in the correct chemistry, brainwise. Well, we all are born different, physically and mentally. Your argument sounds to me a bit like that one doesn't have a choice. Basically, I am born lazy, so I cannot change myself, it's my destiny to stick with low goals. >> I assure you this is not how the brain works. Basically he has hope for the future, so he can sell hope to his brain. Can you please elaborate more on that? I do not think we have a right clear picture now how our brain works, motivation, willpower, discipline, whatever. I can agree that if you decided that you are limited by nature, and also if you think you cannot find your goals and sell to your brain - you will stay where you are. In the end, we are what we think we are.

hos234 7y ago

I think people who have more energy (ala endurance athletes) look more disciplined. Also what kind of energy you need to be a President, Chess Grandmaster or a Tennis Grand Slam winner is different. They all are called displined though. People with disabilities and mental health issues who do well are usually those with high energy levels or are in environments that produce energy more than drain energy(distractions/triggers etc play a role here). You can also see it in areas of poverty. People who do well are usually called more driven, ambitious etc which basically again goes back to energy levels. Stephen King definitely has more energy than GRRM. But Martin has proved you can be as distracted as you want and still suceed if you have an imagination and are social.

wincy 7y ago

The marshmallow test is weird anyway. The other day we happened to have a bag of marshmallows so I asked my daughter if she’d like one marshmallow now or two after doing a chore. Surprise surprise, she gleefully did the chore and got two marshmallows. What does that mean? That she’s a hard worker? That she understands the value of waiting to have a bigger reward in the future? I don’t know.

gerbilly 7y ago
Test it on 30-40 kids instead and then get back to us. You sample size is too small :-)
kthejoker2 7y ago
That's not actually the marshmallow test. The marshmallow test is to see if she can wait 15 minutes alone in a room with a marshmallow without eating it in return for 2 marshmallows. Nothing to do with hard work (in fact, it's about having no distractions at all), its purely about self discipline (setting aside whether it's valid psychology or not..)
- Jill_the_Pill 7y ago
  But then they discovered it is in fact not purely about self-discipline, but rather the degree of trust the child has in the marshmallow promiser. In an uncertain life, it makes sense to take whatever marshmallow is actually here now.
- wincy 7y ago
  Right. I understand. I was making an admittedly hasty and not very clear commentary about how weirdly artificial the marshmallow test is. If I want to put off gratification in the real world, I busy myself with working on something else. I’d personally take the one marshmallow, then go do something else, and hope my daughter would too. My time is too valuable to be sitting around waiting for marshmallows.

lunchables 7y ago

>much like procrastination. It's a mess of things all clumped together like a rats nest of wires. This is such an important point. I struggle with procrastination and learning the underlying causes are what helped me make huge progress. I cannot recommend "The Now Habit" enough to anyone who struggles with procrastination and guilt that surrounds it. It really was life changing for me. One of, if not the, most important books I've read. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/95708.The_Now_Habit https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/95708.The_Now_Habit

bigredhdl 7y ago
Thank you so much for the recommendation. I had checked this audio book out this summer, but procrastinated ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on listening to it. Just checked it out again.

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

>the "marshmallow test" which has been found to be BS. Has it? Is the same true of all the other studies of willpower and ego depletion? The studies of judges with low blood sugar, undergrads being tempted with cookies before doing math problems, all of it? I thought it was pretty settled science. What's the critique of that area of research?

gexla 7y ago
The marshmallow test is among the many which has been caught up in the replication crisis. Link below, maybe not the greatest source, but I'm getting distracted from work. ;) https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmallow-test/561779/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmall...

hinkley 7y ago

I learned a couple years ago that there is a much broader spectrum of sensory processing abnormalities besides autism and aspergers that shows up as a kind of hypervigilance. Some think it may be as high as 10% of humans and explained by evolutionary fitness (when a minority of a tribe has the genes, the tribe fares better than when all or none have it). One of the consequences of this is that people get worn down during the day, and their behavior and judgement becomes dysregulated. They start making bad decisions, especially where interpersonal issues are concerned. On reflection, they are not happy with their behavior. A lot of people who label themselves as introverts experience this to some degree. If 10% of people have an experience that is not neurotypical, then you will be surrounded with anecdotes. Also 10% is more than enough to mess with the statistics for a double blind study, especially if they get over or under-represented in the participants. One of the theories of cocaine as a "thinking man's drug" is that it addresses the symptoms of ADHD, which is another group that can be over-represented in some circles IF they can develop adequate coping mechanisms, including but not limited to self-medication. Same could probably be said about depression (cynicism is good in places like QA, security consulting, disaster planning and investigation).