4 ms·

I was born in 1983 in the Netherlands. My mom, and all my friends' moms, were housewives. About half of these moms were university educated or comparably. All t

I was born in 1983 in the Netherlands. My mom, and all my friends' moms, were housewives. About half of these moms were university educated or comparably. All their daughters now have proper jobs. Sounds like Iran is roughly in the same place now, which I assume is a big improvement over some decades ago. Just give it another generation. Anecdotally, I've tought some CS classes at the local university, to a highly mixed crowd. The Iranian students, every year, were somehow all female, and they were invariably among the top of their class. I'm going to be very surprised if these particular women turn out to become housewives.

daliusd 7y ago
I hope you are right as that would transform Iran completely (in positive way).
Moru 7y ago
You can't compare Iran to Netherlands 30+ years ago...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
aikah 7y ago
> Just give it another generation. There is a pretty clear difference between Netherlands and Iran. The former isn't a dictatorship nor a theocracy.
oytis 7y ago
I think it's one of the problems with people from the West reasoning about authoritarian countries. You try to evaluate countries that are like 30-100 years behind by the metrics that are relevant for the Western world _today_ (like gender gap, etc.). The problem with Iran, in the first place is that it is an authoritarian theocracy with no freedom of speech, assembly and association, freedom of religion, right to fair trial, etc. I believe it's quite unreasonable to talk about gender equality, LGBT right and so forth until these are fixed.
- daliusd 7y ago
  However even authoritarian regimes are different. E.g. Stalin's Soviet Russia is quite different from post-Stalin Soviet Russia while both are authoritarian regimes. I don't want to live in either but if I had to choose from the two that's definitely not under Stalin's sun. Based on what people talk in Iran authoritarian regime is much more relaxed now. The only reason why we don't see revolution in Iran yet is that they still remember the last one. They expect to get normal government somehow without revolution but I doubt that they will succeed with that.
  - oytis 7y ago
    I did't mean Iran is a worst regime ever. I was only objecting to claiming it being 'roughly the same' as Netherlands in 1980s based on one trait, that is women's rights. Considering Stalin's regime it was quite progressive wrt gender equality for it's time: women had equal rights to vote (even if voting was meaningless), could study at universities and work almost any job they wanted. Still, it was a brutal totalitarian dictatorship, and if I was a woman, I would probably prefer living in some less equal Western country at the time.
    - daliusd 7y ago
      Would some ex-soviet country be better example? Again, we have very different stories for ex-soviet countries as well. Overall I agree with you.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
If you were to look at Iran before the revolution, you'd find them as liberal as most and more so than many parts of the West - the Catholic nations - in the same era. So it's only improvement if you're looking at post-revolutionary Iran. Extend timeline a little further back and it's a giant leap backwards.
- skitout 7y ago
  I think I read somewhere that revolution actually boosted girl literacy and girl attendance to school and high school because most of Iran outside big cities was very conservative and did not trust secular school... I think there were and there is huge difference between some area in Tehran and different places in the countryside
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    General literacy is very different to university level education. Anyway, wasn't parent talking of what options are there after the qualification? To get a career with that BSc, or become a housewife... That there is difference between capital and countryside is not surprising. You'll find that in every nation except city states, throughout history - London compared to the rural parts of Yorkshire or the Scottish Islands. Washington DC compared to rural Ohio or Mississippi. Actually these days, London compared to everywhere else in the UK.

daliusd 7y ago

I hope you are right as that would transform Iran completely (in positive way).

Moru 7y ago

You can't compare Iran to Netherlands 30+ years ago...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

aikah 7y ago

> Just give it another generation. There is a pretty clear difference between Netherlands and Iran. The former isn't a dictatorship nor a theocracy.

oytis 7y ago

I think it's one of the problems with people from the West reasoning about authoritarian countries. You try to evaluate countries that are like 30-100 years behind by the metrics that are relevant for the Western world _today_ (like gender gap, etc.). The problem with Iran, in the first place is that it is an authoritarian theocracy with no freedom of speech, assembly and association, freedom of religion, right to fair trial, etc. I believe it's quite unreasonable to talk about gender equality, LGBT right and so forth until these are fixed.

daliusd 7y ago
However even authoritarian regimes are different. E.g. Stalin's Soviet Russia is quite different from post-Stalin Soviet Russia while both are authoritarian regimes. I don't want to live in either but if I had to choose from the two that's definitely not under Stalin's sun. Based on what people talk in Iran authoritarian regime is much more relaxed now. The only reason why we don't see revolution in Iran yet is that they still remember the last one. They expect to get normal government somehow without revolution but I doubt that they will succeed with that.
- oytis 7y ago
  I did't mean Iran is a worst regime ever. I was only objecting to claiming it being 'roughly the same' as Netherlands in 1980s based on one trait, that is women's rights. Considering Stalin's regime it was quite progressive wrt gender equality for it's time: women had equal rights to vote (even if voting was meaningless), could study at universities and work almost any job they wanted. Still, it was a brutal totalitarian dictatorship, and if I was a woman, I would probably prefer living in some less equal Western country at the time.
  - daliusd 7y ago
    Would some ex-soviet country be better example? Again, we have very different stories for ex-soviet countries as well. Overall I agree with you.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

If you were to look at Iran before the revolution, you'd find them as liberal as most and more so than many parts of the West - the Catholic nations - in the same era. So it's only improvement if you're looking at post-revolutionary Iran. Extend timeline a little further back and it's a giant leap backwards.

skitout 7y ago
I think I read somewhere that revolution actually boosted girl literacy and girl attendance to school and high school because most of Iran outside big cities was very conservative and did not trust secular school... I think there were and there is huge difference between some area in Tehran and different places in the countryside
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  General literacy is very different to university level education. Anyway, wasn't parent talking of what options are there after the qualification? To get a career with that BSc, or become a housewife... That there is difference between capital and countryside is not surprising. You'll find that in every nation except city states, throughout history - London compared to the rural parts of Yorkshire or the Scottish Islands. Washington DC compared to rural Ohio or Mississippi. Actually these days, London compared to everywhere else in the UK.