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Iran bans females from attending sports events and imposes mandatory hijab (e.g. [0]), Turkey does not. You can oppose Western policy if you like, but lets tal

by yyyk 7y ago

Iran bans females from attending sports events and imposes mandatory hijab (e.g. [0]), Turkey does not. You can oppose Western policy if you like, but lets talk about the country's policies as they really are. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/10/iranian-female-football-fan-who-self-immolated-outside-court-dies https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/10/iranian-female...

fluffything 7y ago
Is Turkey really that much progressive than Iran ? Turkey is quite connected to Germany even though many don't want to admit that, so I would agree that, superficially at least, it looks more western-ish. But IIRC a couple of years ago there was a coup attempt in Turkey, lots of journalists, academics, judges, etc. were instantaneously thrown into jail, etc. So I'm unsure how much of that "western-look" that Turkey has is real and how much is just a facade. Is there democracy in Turkey? Is there freedom of opinion? Freedom of press? Religious freedom? I'm not arguing whether Iran is better or worse, and I'm not suggesting that we should only measure both countries in, e.g., LGBT rights, but while Turkey might not be exactly Iran, I actually put closer to Iran than to its Greek neighbor in the "progressive" scale.
- yyyk 7y ago
  Turkey is getting worse and worse, but there's still no outright overt enforcement of religious norms and a secular opposition is still allowed to run in meaningful elections. Closer to Iran than Greece? hmm.. sure. But it's not there just yet.
- quotz 7y ago
  In terms of Greece’s liberal progressive spectrum, in fact, the tradition of a newly wed bride’s father gifting the groom a house/apt is still a thing. I know because I am from the Balkans. As much as you think that Greece is progressive, its actually not, in the western sense of the word. Also, I dont really believe that one can have an individual’s opinion of progressiveness, or whether ones left wing or right wing, I believe that most things people believe in are there because of their herd mentality, and of course theres the wealthy and powerful people who are trying to keep the citizens in a status quo. Chomsky has a great book on this. Also, I believe it was Napoleon who said “Religion is why the poor havent murdered the rich yet”
bloak 7y ago
Iran requires headscarves. Turkey has banned them. Both are somewhat oppressive, in that respect, but dress codes are a trivial matter compared to things like freedom of speech. I'd rather not get distracted by them. East Germany allowed total nudity on the beach (and also didn't ban burkinis, as far as I know, unlike certain countries that claim to believe in Liberté). Was East Germany less oppressive than the UK?
Rapzid 7y ago
It hasn't been quite 100 years since women got the vote in the USA.. Women's rights are the way up in Iran. I think the implicit comparison here is to Israel and Saudi Arabia. The later of which our leadership seems to have nothing but good things to say even after 9/11, Khashoggi, and Yemen(with weapons from us).
- yyyk 7y ago
  Women's rights are on the way up in Iran? Perhaps, I can't recall any basis for it. Maybe this will happen in the long term, but that's almost an empty statement. Now, condemning SA is perfectly justified. But 'look over there' isn't a helpful argument re: Iran. It sounds like the same hypocrisy the US government does, except the US government at least has some foreign policy justification for it (Iran being more powerful and more hostile to US), while commenters are just being contrarian.
Double_a_92 7y ago
> Iran bans females from attending sports events and imposes mandatory hijab But would that really be that terrible in the grad scheme of things? Would you not wear a mandatory hat and renounce on sport events if everything else was faily good? This only seems like massive oppression from our privileged western view.
- CDSlice 7y ago
  How is being forced to wear specific clothing and being banned from certain areas for no reason other than your gender _not_ massive oppression? It's literally taking away your ability to decide for yourself as a human being. And yes, I'm a privileged westerner, but that doesn't exactly seem relevant.
  - Double_a_92 7y ago
    Would you rather live in a politically and financially unstable country were you are free to do whatever you want. Or were you are forced to wear specific type of clothes but society is wealthy and stable?
    - Konnstann 7y ago
      Seeing as how the average Iranian is neither wealthy nor in a politically stable environment, I'd have to disagree with the argument as a whole. Reducing the treatment of women under Islamic law to "wearing specific clothes" is also incredibly misleading.
      - quotz 7y ago
        Theyre not financially stable, but politically intracountrywise, they are. Theyre not diplomatically stable with the west because Saudi oil is competing with Iran oil, and Saudi pays their debts in big lobbying and massive weapon buying from the west. But socially speaking, the country is very stable. Their culture is as strong as it has always been. They really dont have any social frictions. I would say the US has big social frictions, like the massive false allegation cases where men lose their whole careers over made up stuff...
quotz 7y ago
Saudi Arabia is way worse than Iran in terms of womens rights, but nobody cares because theres no propaganda against them... US foreign policy is like the most hypocritical agenda ever conceived. China is communist, but they dont care since theyre making money off China, while the Soviets communism was a target of propaganda all the time. Also, just to add, Iran was very liberal until 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power, and he only came to power because the Shah raised oil prices and the Americans approved of Khomeini coming back to Iran.

by yyyk 7y ago

fluffything 7y ago

Is Turkey really that much progressive than Iran ? Turkey is quite connected to Germany even though many don't want to admit that, so I would agree that, superficially at least, it looks more western-ish. But IIRC a couple of years ago there was a coup attempt in Turkey, lots of journalists, academics, judges, etc. were instantaneously thrown into jail, etc. So I'm unsure how much of that "western-look" that Turkey has is real and how much is just a facade. Is there democracy in Turkey? Is there freedom of opinion? Freedom of press? Religious freedom? I'm not arguing whether Iran is better or worse, and I'm not suggesting that we should only measure both countries in, e.g., LGBT rights, but while Turkey might not be exactly Iran, I actually put closer to Iran than to its Greek neighbor in the "progressive" scale.

yyyk 7y ago
Turkey is getting worse and worse, but there's still no outright overt enforcement of religious norms and a secular opposition is still allowed to run in meaningful elections. Closer to Iran than Greece? hmm.. sure. But it's not there just yet.
quotz 7y ago
In terms of Greece’s liberal progressive spectrum, in fact, the tradition of a newly wed bride’s father gifting the groom a house/apt is still a thing. I know because I am from the Balkans. As much as you think that Greece is progressive, its actually not, in the western sense of the word. Also, I dont really believe that one can have an individual’s opinion of progressiveness, or whether ones left wing or right wing, I believe that most things people believe in are there because of their herd mentality, and of course theres the wealthy and powerful people who are trying to keep the citizens in a status quo. Chomsky has a great book on this. Also, I believe it was Napoleon who said “Religion is why the poor havent murdered the rich yet”

bloak 7y ago

Iran requires headscarves. Turkey has banned them. Both are somewhat oppressive, in that respect, but dress codes are a trivial matter compared to things like freedom of speech. I'd rather not get distracted by them. East Germany allowed total nudity on the beach (and also didn't ban burkinis, as far as I know, unlike certain countries that claim to believe in Liberté). Was East Germany less oppressive than the UK?

Rapzid 7y ago

It hasn't been quite 100 years since women got the vote in the USA.. Women's rights are the way up in Iran. I think the implicit comparison here is to Israel and Saudi Arabia. The later of which our leadership seems to have nothing but good things to say even after 9/11, Khashoggi, and Yemen(with weapons from us).

yyyk 7y ago
Women's rights are on the way up in Iran? Perhaps, I can't recall any basis for it. Maybe this will happen in the long term, but that's almost an empty statement. Now, condemning SA is perfectly justified. But 'look over there' isn't a helpful argument re: Iran. It sounds like the same hypocrisy the US government does, except the US government at least has some foreign policy justification for it (Iran being more powerful and more hostile to US), while commenters are just being contrarian.

Double_a_92 7y ago

> Iran bans females from attending sports events and imposes mandatory hijab But would that really be that terrible in the grad scheme of things? Would you not wear a mandatory hat and renounce on sport events if everything else was faily good? This only seems like massive oppression from our privileged western view.

CDSlice 7y ago
How is being forced to wear specific clothing and being banned from certain areas for no reason other than your gender _not_ massive oppression? It's literally taking away your ability to decide for yourself as a human being. And yes, I'm a privileged westerner, but that doesn't exactly seem relevant.
- Double_a_92 7y ago
  Would you rather live in a politically and financially unstable country were you are free to do whatever you want. Or were you are forced to wear specific type of clothes but society is wealthy and stable?
  - Konnstann 7y ago
    Seeing as how the average Iranian is neither wealthy nor in a politically stable environment, I'd have to disagree with the argument as a whole. Reducing the treatment of women under Islamic law to "wearing specific clothes" is also incredibly misleading.
    - quotz 7y ago
      Theyre not financially stable, but politically intracountrywise, they are. Theyre not diplomatically stable with the west because Saudi oil is competing with Iran oil, and Saudi pays their debts in big lobbying and massive weapon buying from the west. But socially speaking, the country is very stable. Their culture is as strong as it has always been. They really dont have any social frictions. I would say the US has big social frictions, like the massive false allegation cases where men lose their whole careers over made up stuff...

quotz 7y ago

Saudi Arabia is way worse than Iran in terms of womens rights, but nobody cares because theres no propaganda against them... US foreign policy is like the most hypocritical agenda ever conceived. China is communist, but they dont care since theyre making money off China, while the Soviets communism was a target of propaganda all the time. Also, just to add, Iran was very liberal until 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power, and he only came to power because the Shah raised oil prices and the Americans approved of Khomeini coming back to Iran.