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Former chess prodigy here. I had the honor of training with Pal Benko in the early 90s when I represented Team USA in the world youth championships. I remember

Former chess prodigy here. I had the honor of training with Pal Benko in the early 90s when I represented Team USA in the world youth championships. I remember Benko being a real class act, which I can’t say about many of the chess personalities I’ve met over the years. You could tell he was absolutely, passionately in love with chess. In that sense he represented something pure which maybe we’ve lost in this new era. That said, let’s be clear. The golden era of American chess, and chess in general, is happening now and only getting better. I give credit to to open-source projects like LiChess and Lc0, tournaments like LiChess Titled where mere mortals get a chance to challenge Magnus, and the rise of chess streaming as a thing. Heck, I’ll concede that the golden era of classical chess is over. But it’s been over for a while, pretty much since computers advanced opening theory and took all the wins out of classical. RIP classical chess. But for those willing to think on their feet, the golden era of blitz and bullet is here :-)

tus88 7y ago
How has computer chess changed how humans play humans? (I.e. when you take the computer out of thr equation).
- icelancer 7y ago
  Offline optimization and study using simulation software.
- mindgam3 7y ago
  At the amateur level, not much. Other than most amateurs spend way too much time relying on engine evals, and as a result don’t develop their own ability to learn “chess sense”. Competitive players can now prepare easily for individual opponents, which is cool and used to only be feasible for pros. For pros, it means that everyone plays the same safe openings, because they’re all “booked up” thanks to engines. Also many super sharp tactical lines have been conclusively decided by engines so can no longer be played. End result is world championships like the last one of all draws, which was just pathetic. Most of the GMs I’ve asked about this in the last year have expressed that they no longer love playing classical chess because it’s so boring. Hence the rise of legit Chess960 and rapid tournaments at the top level.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    >> End result is world championships like the last one of all draws, which was just pathetic. Yeah, this sucks. We've reached local maxima.
    - craigsmansion 7y ago
      If it becomes too boring, the rules might be modified. Castling and en-passant were not always a given. Something simple like a draw is 1/4 point for white, 3/4 point for black, might re-invigorate matches in classical format.
      - billfruit 7y ago
        Or that if a player offers to draw, and the other player declines and goes on to win, they shall be offered 2x points. I do wonder though, in a drawn situation, can't one player push for a win if they are ahead on time, which one of the players is sure to be? Why would anyone accept a draw if they are ahead on time?
        nimblegorilla 7y ago
        Are you suggesting that one player could win by running out the clock? Classical gives players 30 more seconds after each move so it becomes unlikely to run out the clock.
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        I've invented several chess variants, none any good except for one which allowed you to take your own pieces. Seemed pretty good. Inevitably it's been done before https://www.chessvariants.com/difftaking.dir/selfeliminator.html https://www.chessvariants.com/difftaking.dir/selfeliminator.... So there's my offer for a new variant.
  - tus88 7y ago
    So classical chess is a style that would be obvious just by watching someone for a number of moves? That's very interesting.
icelancer 7y ago
>> RIP classical chess Yeah, unfortunately, this is true. But inevitable as you pointed out, as it is with many games that become hyper-optimized due to the rise of computing power (and GPUs being turned into powerhouses as of late). Fischer did get that part right; that classic tournament chess was dying and/or dead. FRC is a fun variant but the writing's on the wall; blitz/bullet and of course bughouse are all the rage today. And of course, there's always Jerry to watch [0], who is a pleasure. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/user/ChessNetwork/ https://www.youtube.com/user/ChessNetwork/
yesenadam 7y ago
Am watching the World Cup right now. Before that watched the Sinquefield Cup. Both (so far) exciting events, not sure how you can pronounce classical chess dead. Bullet, lol---chess without thinking. It's the thinking I like about chess. The carefully-worked-out combinations, brilliant defensive plans, drawing swindles etc. If people like playing bullet, great, but it seems another game entirely. People complaining here about the draws in the last world championship: the WCC matches are much too short these days, players won't take risks as there's no time to catch up if they backfire. But "shorter, faster" is supposed to cure everything. Anyway, Karpov and Kasparov had a lot of draws, 17 in a row in 1984, in virtually the pre-computer era.
- mindgam3 7y ago
  Re classical, if you don’t want to take my word for it, look up the chess24 interview after the last world champs where magnus said it was so unenjoyable he wasn’t even sure if he’d defend his title. No offense, only people who suck at bullet say it doesn’t involve thinking. It’s the same game, it involves developing and training your intuition. I could teach anyone how to get good, even you... if you were open to learn that is. (And had the budget or could trade for coding hours :-)
  - yesenadam 7y ago
    If you have to say "No offense" to begin a sentence, it probably doesn't belong on HN. And "..even you..if you were open to learn" is in the same vein. I'm not interested in communicating further. Edit: Gee, lots of downvotes. Not sure why. Should I have said nothing? I thought the way they spoke to me was utterly unacceptable, as I calmly pointed out. My initial points were mostly obvious things everyone in the chess world knows, including the person I was responding to.
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      > Should I have said nothing? I'm hoping you want a reply here, or else I'm wasting my time ;-) I have found that letting others have the last word is both magnanimous and a great strategy for extracting myself from conversations with people I no longer wish to talk to. You seem like the kind of person who appreciates strategic thinking, which is why I thought you might enjoy that idea.

tus88 7y ago

How has computer chess changed how humans play humans? (I.e. when you take the computer out of thr equation).

icelancer 7y ago
Offline optimization and study using simulation software.
mindgam3 7y ago
At the amateur level, not much. Other than most amateurs spend way too much time relying on engine evals, and as a result don’t develop their own ability to learn “chess sense”. Competitive players can now prepare easily for individual opponents, which is cool and used to only be feasible for pros. For pros, it means that everyone plays the same safe openings, because they’re all “booked up” thanks to engines. Also many super sharp tactical lines have been conclusively decided by engines so can no longer be played. End result is world championships like the last one of all draws, which was just pathetic. Most of the GMs I’ve asked about this in the last year have expressed that they no longer love playing classical chess because it’s so boring. Hence the rise of legit Chess960 and rapid tournaments at the top level.
- icelancer 7y ago
  >> End result is world championships like the last one of all draws, which was just pathetic. Yeah, this sucks. We've reached local maxima.
  - craigsmansion 7y ago
    If it becomes too boring, the rules might be modified. Castling and en-passant were not always a given. Something simple like a draw is 1/4 point for white, 3/4 point for black, might re-invigorate matches in classical format.
    - billfruit 7y ago
      Or that if a player offers to draw, and the other player declines and goes on to win, they shall be offered 2x points. I do wonder though, in a drawn situation, can't one player push for a win if they are ahead on time, which one of the players is sure to be? Why would anyone accept a draw if they are ahead on time?
      - nimblegorilla 7y ago
        Are you suggesting that one player could win by running out the clock? Classical gives players 30 more seconds after each move so it becomes unlikely to run out the clock.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      I've invented several chess variants, none any good except for one which allowed you to take your own pieces. Seemed pretty good. Inevitably it's been done before https://www.chessvariants.com/difftaking.dir/selfeliminator.html https://www.chessvariants.com/difftaking.dir/selfeliminator.... So there's my offer for a new variant.
- tus88 7y ago
  So classical chess is a style that would be obvious just by watching someone for a number of moves? That's very interesting.

icelancer 7y ago

>> RIP classical chess Yeah, unfortunately, this is true. But inevitable as you pointed out, as it is with many games that become hyper-optimized due to the rise of computing power (and GPUs being turned into powerhouses as of late). Fischer did get that part right; that classic tournament chess was dying and/or dead. FRC is a fun variant but the writing's on the wall; blitz/bullet and of course bughouse are all the rage today. And of course, there's always Jerry to watch [0], who is a pleasure. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/user/ChessNetwork/ https://www.youtube.com/user/ChessNetwork/

yesenadam 7y ago

Am watching the World Cup right now. Before that watched the Sinquefield Cup. Both (so far) exciting events, not sure how you can pronounce classical chess dead. Bullet, lol---chess without thinking. It's the thinking I like about chess. The carefully-worked-out combinations, brilliant defensive plans, drawing swindles etc. If people like playing bullet, great, but it seems another game entirely. People complaining here about the draws in the last world championship: the WCC matches are much too short these days, players won't take risks as there's no time to catch up if they backfire. But "shorter, faster" is supposed to cure everything. Anyway, Karpov and Kasparov had a lot of draws, 17 in a row in 1984, in virtually the pre-computer era.

mindgam3 7y ago
Re classical, if you don’t want to take my word for it, look up the chess24 interview after the last world champs where magnus said it was so unenjoyable he wasn’t even sure if he’d defend his title. No offense, only people who suck at bullet say it doesn’t involve thinking. It’s the same game, it involves developing and training your intuition. I could teach anyone how to get good, even you... if you were open to learn that is. (And had the budget or could trade for coding hours :-)
- yesenadam 7y ago
  If you have to say "No offense" to begin a sentence, it probably doesn't belong on HN. And "..even you..if you were open to learn" is in the same vein. I'm not interested in communicating further. Edit: Gee, lots of downvotes. Not sure why. Should I have said nothing? I thought the way they spoke to me was utterly unacceptable, as I calmly pointed out. My initial points were mostly obvious things everyone in the chess world knows, including the person I was responding to.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    > Should I have said nothing? I'm hoping you want a reply here, or else I'm wasting my time ;-) I have found that letting others have the last word is both magnanimous and a great strategy for extracting myself from conversations with people I no longer wish to talk to. You seem like the kind of person who appreciates strategic thinking, which is why I thought you might enjoy that idea.