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I see this argument a lot for the non-existence of a higher power, god whatever. But it’s based on the (I think false) presumption that in order for a higher po

I see this argument a lot for the non-existence of a higher power, god whatever. But it’s based on the (I think false) presumption that in order for a higher power to exist, that power must necessarily intend for humans on an individual basis have nothing bad happen to them. This is clearly false since the world is full of suffering, pain, genocide, murder and the like. Obviously, the point of life is not for all us to get along and be happy because nothing bad happens, it’s to try to overcome the horror and live in the appreciation of every moment that we are alive, no matter the pain or suffering. Living in enteral peace is easy when nothing bad happens, it’s when the shit hits the fan that the real work begins. In my humble view, each of us has a part to play in the greater order of the universe. Sometimes that part is to be rich and comfortable. Other times it’s to be a starving child. If you believe in re-incarnation, all of us are the starving child AND the billionaire.

mhh__ 7y ago
> must necessarily intend for humans on an individual basis have nothing bad happen to them This is at very least at odds with Christian teaching e.g. the personal god is one believed in by many. This regardless of the lack of scientific evidence for the existence of God.
- kaoD 7y ago
  I don't know which specific Christian sect you're referring to but in Catholicism God isn't seen as merciful on Earth. Penance and repentance (due to our sins, including the Original Sin) are core parts of their belief. Old testament's God is a jerk. Only on afterlife will you be absolved of your sins (or sent to hell I guess).
  - mhh__ 7y ago
    You've never seen someone pray for God to help them?
  - cygx 7y ago
    But note that before the Fall, things were supposedly perfect, and some theologians place emphasis on the fact that sin and death entered the world through the actions of one man (Adam), and so did redemption and eternal life through Jesus, another human (fully so, despite having no mortal father and being fully God at the same time - Christianity is weird...) It's a bit of a struggle to harmonize this with evolution, but Catholics are free to believe in it as long as they also affirm the existence of a historical Adam and Eve that did something to cause the Fall...
    - arethuza 7y ago
      Speaking of such things a friend of mine sold me on His Dark Materials by describing it as a world where "dark matter is original sin".
    - rmilejczz 7y ago
      It was actually Eve, not Adam, who partakes of the fruit, though most theologians would blame Lucifer, and some may even say God intended for all of that to happen anyway
      - SigmundA 7y ago
        Right because who created, Adam, Eve and Lucifer and all things including free will? The buck stops at one place unless you believe there is something outside of god, that is free will is outside of gods creation or design, if so what created it?
      - cygx 7y ago
        That 'through one man thing' comes from Paul (Romans 5:12, if you want to get specific). Historically, not all theologians were big on female agency (there's even a theory that a woman only fully takes part in the imago dei when united with man through marriage, whereas a man has it on his own; can't quite remember if that was a Jewish of Christian thing, though...)
  - krapp 7y ago
    The Old Testament God, like all gods, is an expression of a particular culture and its philosophy on the nature of the world, society and the value of human life. It took centuries of cultural and ethical evolution to get from the brutal legalism of "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" to "If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." This isn't because "God" mellowed out between the Old and New Testaments, rather, it's because humanity changed its definition of what a good and benevolent God should be, over time. Mostly.
- benj111 7y ago
  Agreed. I think you could make the case for god being a gardener/farmer. I don't think that really fits into most forms of Christianity in aware of.
Nursie 7y ago
And if you think reincarnation is a load of crap too? It's not actually really an argument for the non existence of a higher power. It's an argument that if such a higher power exists, it is not benevolent. It's in fact quite malevolent to have created such evil.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  I don't think that necessarily follows. Suffering is a necessary component of growth, and so maybe it isn't unreasonable that a god allows their creation to suffer in order to grow. If human beings spent their lives in an idyllic garden of Eden, what would we be? Would we create art? Would we explore? Would we achieve anything? Parents often both allow and inflict suffering upon their children, but do you believe that these are acts of malevolence?
  - Nursie 7y ago
    So children losing their sight to a parasitic worm by age 5 is a necessary part of growth? Sorry, no, that's repellant.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      You're thinking on an individual level, presumably a god has all of humanity to think about (at the very least, they probably concern themselves with all things that exist). If the after-life exists, then that child will have undergone a mere lifetime of suffering and then live forever in paradise. In the meantime, meankind on earth has been working to solve the problems of blindness and health care distribution, in the process learning about itself both physically and as a societal entity. When you think about it, expecting god (or the universe) to invest its full attention in you and your problems is really quite entitled. But let's suppose you had it your way and there was no suffering anywhere. How would god achieve that? I imagine the only way is to force everyone to do the right thing at all times, thus eliminating the concept of free will, and then what even are we? Who are we to demand both the freedom to act as we wish and freedom from consequences? I was an atheist for a long time, so I get the whole 'God is a dick' thing, but when you sit down and think about it deeply I think you'll see that it is only true for a particularly disingenuous construct of god.
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Its not about 'not-beautiful'. Its about abject cruelty. If there is a god, it is a sadist. That's the point being made in this thread.
- achillesheels 7y ago
  Sadism to you is absurd humor to an Almighty Creator.
Traubenfuchs 7y ago
Your presumption is definitely wrong. There are countless video games, movies and other media that involve graphic display or description of severe torture. Aren't we the gods of those worlds? What if we are on the level of a video game to some higher being? Also, there are human parents that produced offspring only to torture and kill their children.

mhh__ 7y ago

> must necessarily intend for humans on an individual basis have nothing bad happen to them This is at very least at odds with Christian teaching e.g. the personal god is one believed in by many. This regardless of the lack of scientific evidence for the existence of God.

kaoD 7y ago
I don't know which specific Christian sect you're referring to but in Catholicism God isn't seen as merciful on Earth. Penance and repentance (due to our sins, including the Original Sin) are core parts of their belief. Old testament's God is a jerk. Only on afterlife will you be absolved of your sins (or sent to hell I guess).
- mhh__ 7y ago
  You've never seen someone pray for God to help them?
- cygx 7y ago
  But note that before the Fall, things were supposedly perfect, and some theologians place emphasis on the fact that sin and death entered the world through the actions of one man (Adam), and so did redemption and eternal life through Jesus, another human (fully so, despite having no mortal father and being fully God at the same time - Christianity is weird...) It's a bit of a struggle to harmonize this with evolution, but Catholics are free to believe in it as long as they also affirm the existence of a historical Adam and Eve that did something to cause the Fall...
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Speaking of such things a friend of mine sold me on His Dark Materials by describing it as a world where "dark matter is original sin".
  - rmilejczz 7y ago
    It was actually Eve, not Adam, who partakes of the fruit, though most theologians would blame Lucifer, and some may even say God intended for all of that to happen anyway
    - SigmundA 7y ago
      Right because who created, Adam, Eve and Lucifer and all things including free will? The buck stops at one place unless you believe there is something outside of god, that is free will is outside of gods creation or design, if so what created it?
    - cygx 7y ago
      That 'through one man thing' comes from Paul (Romans 5:12, if you want to get specific). Historically, not all theologians were big on female agency (there's even a theory that a woman only fully takes part in the imago dei when united with man through marriage, whereas a man has it on his own; can't quite remember if that was a Jewish of Christian thing, though...)
- krapp 7y ago
  The Old Testament God, like all gods, is an expression of a particular culture and its philosophy on the nature of the world, society and the value of human life. It took centuries of cultural and ethical evolution to get from the brutal legalism of "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" to "If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." This isn't because "God" mellowed out between the Old and New Testaments, rather, it's because humanity changed its definition of what a good and benevolent God should be, over time. Mostly.
benj111 7y ago
Agreed. I think you could make the case for god being a gardener/farmer. I don't think that really fits into most forms of Christianity in aware of.

Nursie 7y ago

And if you think reincarnation is a load of crap too? It's not actually really an argument for the non existence of a higher power. It's an argument that if such a higher power exists, it is not benevolent. It's in fact quite malevolent to have created such evil.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
I don't think that necessarily follows. Suffering is a necessary component of growth, and so maybe it isn't unreasonable that a god allows their creation to suffer in order to grow. If human beings spent their lives in an idyllic garden of Eden, what would we be? Would we create art? Would we explore? Would we achieve anything? Parents often both allow and inflict suffering upon their children, but do you believe that these are acts of malevolence?
- Nursie 7y ago
  So children losing their sight to a parasitic worm by age 5 is a necessary part of growth? Sorry, no, that's repellant.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    You're thinking on an individual level, presumably a god has all of humanity to think about (at the very least, they probably concern themselves with all things that exist). If the after-life exists, then that child will have undergone a mere lifetime of suffering and then live forever in paradise. In the meantime, meankind on earth has been working to solve the problems of blindness and health care distribution, in the process learning about itself both physically and as a societal entity. When you think about it, expecting god (or the universe) to invest its full attention in you and your problems is really quite entitled. But let's suppose you had it your way and there was no suffering anywhere. How would god achieve that? I imagine the only way is to force everyone to do the right thing at all times, thus eliminating the concept of free will, and then what even are we? Who are we to demand both the freedom to act as we wish and freedom from consequences? I was an atheist for a long time, so I get the whole 'God is a dick' thing, but when you sit down and think about it deeply I think you'll see that it is only true for a particularly disingenuous construct of god.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

Its not about 'not-beautiful'. Its about abject cruelty. If there is a god, it is a sadist. That's the point being made in this thread.

achillesheels 7y ago
Sadism to you is absurd humor to an Almighty Creator.

Traubenfuchs 7y ago

Your presumption is definitely wrong. There are countless video games, movies and other media that involve graphic display or description of severe torture. Aren't we the gods of those worlds? What if we are on the level of a video game to some higher being? Also, there are human parents that produced offspring only to torture and kill their children.