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To me, wasps are strong evidence that if there is a creator God he is indifferent to cruelty. Almost all wasp species, to survive, implant their young in hosts.

by cm2012 7y ago

To me, wasps are strong evidence that if there is a creator God he is indifferent to cruelty. Almost all wasp species, to survive, implant their young in hosts. When the young are born they eat the host alive from the inside out. This is the natural order and the order is fucked.

zoul 7y ago
Fucked when viewed from the point of a single individual. Beatiful when considered as a whole.
hudon 7y ago
We don’t understand the extent to which a wasp’s prey feel pain, so it’s hard to project a human sensibility like “cruelty” onto it. There isn’t strong evidence to suggest that they “feel” the way we do about things like pain and cruelty. A wasp’s prey being eaten inside-out could very well be as natural and pain-less as lava burning through the Earth’s skin.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Pain is a survival reaction, natural feedback to avoid actions that damage/destroy the being. It was proven that even flowers feel a form of pain. Pain of smaller creatures might not be exactly same as what we experience, but there is no logical reason to think that feeling pain or other self-preservation instincts are absent. There is no point to think that unless you hear screams and cries all is good and fine.
  - Sverigevader 7y ago
    Mental (un)health is an example of this. Sometimes you can neither hear nor see it.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Suffering is an emotional response to pain. Plenty of animals react to negative stimuli, but not all of them experience suffering.
mhh__ 7y ago
"Well, it's funny that the people, when they say that this is evidence of the Almighty, always quote beautiful things. They always quote orchids and hummingbirds and butterflies and roses." But I always have to think too of a little boy sitting on the banks of a river in west Africa who has a worm boring through his eyeball, turning him blind before he's five years old. And I reply and say, "Well, presumably the God you speak about created the worm as well," and now, I find that baffling to credit a merciful God with that action. - David Attenborough
- clay_the_ripper 7y ago
  I see this argument a lot for the non-existence of a higher power, god whatever. But it’s based on the (I think false) presumption that in order for a higher power to exist, that power must necessarily intend for humans on an individual basis have nothing bad happen to them. This is clearly false since the world is full of suffering, pain, genocide, murder and the like. Obviously, the point of life is not for all us to get along and be happy because nothing bad happens, it’s to try to overcome the horror and live in the appreciation of every moment that we are alive, no matter the pain or suffering. Living in enteral peace is easy when nothing bad happens, it’s when the shit hits the fan that the real work begins. In my humble view, each of us has a part to play in the greater order of the universe. Sometimes that part is to be rich and comfortable. Other times it’s to be a starving child. If you believe in re-incarnation, all of us are the starving child AND the billionaire.
  - mhh__ 7y ago
    > must necessarily intend for humans on an individual basis have nothing bad happen to them This is at very least at odds with Christian teaching e.g. the personal god is one believed in by many. This regardless of the lack of scientific evidence for the existence of God.
    - kaoD 7y ago
      I don't know which specific Christian sect you're referring to but in Catholicism God isn't seen as merciful on Earth. Penance and repentance (due to our sins, including the Original Sin) are core parts of their belief. Old testament's God is a jerk. Only on afterlife will you be absolved of your sins (or sent to hell I guess).
jasim 7y ago
The Patrician took a sip of his beer. ‘I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I’m sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that’s when I first learned about evil. It is built in to the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.’ -- Unseen Academicals, Terry Pratchett
- arethuza 7y ago
  A long, long time ago when I was in Primary 7 out teacher was a splendid old chap, just about to retire who had been a Spitfire pilot in WW2. We read the bible every day - usually the violent and rather unpleasant parts of the Old Testament. I do believe old Mr C might have been teaching us a subtle lesson there which he couldn't do openly - it being a deeply religious community in the north of Scotland. In the memorable words of Randolph Churchill (son of Winston) after being bet to read the Bible by a well meaning colleague: "Isn't God a shit!".
masklinn 7y ago
Don't forget that parasitoid wasps generally feed upon parasitic insects themselves. The average weevil is a tree's botfly burrowing beneath its skin and eating it from inside, an aphid is a vampire feeding on a flower's lifeblood, …
tr33house 7y ago
The Christian understanding is that these practices are a result of sin and that will no longer be the case in the new Earth. Most animals, including actual lions, will be vegan/veg in the new world. Current adaptations are simply adaptations as a result of current conditions. Src: Isiah 65:25
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted; what you say is correct from a Christian theological perspective. (Source: a 4-year degree from a somewhat well-known, mostly for negatives, Christian university.) I have no intentions to debate theology in this forum. Hardly the right place.
- edflsafoiewq 7y ago
  An interesting paper on the opposite point of view. Isa 65 is discussed. Death and the Garden: An Examination of Original Immortality, Vegetarianism, and Animal Peace in the Hebrew Bible and Mesopotamia: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/0qm3n0mt https://escholarship.org/uc/item/0qm3n0mt
gumby 7y ago
Perhaps that relates to the origin of the god. If it itself had been created in some similar way it would naturally consider such a process perfectly natural.
amriksohata 7y ago
For me the biggest misnomer is to assume just because God is God, he would be nice. Eastern texts, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism etc explain this by Karma. You are a result of your actions, not Gods.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  ...and the child on the riverbank in Kenya, with its eyeball being eaten from the inside out, was sinful how? How could a child 'deserve' such cruel treatment?
  - amriksohata 7y ago
    Horrible situation, all these religions dont just preach Karma, but also Dharma, there are 4 parts, Karma, Dharma, Moksha and Artha. Karma is the basis of your actions, what that child might have done in a past life, but that doesn't stop your Dharma, the guy walking by from helping him. Its our Dharma (duty) to help those and not blame their past lives.
    - amriksohata 7y ago
      What I'm saying more closer to the point is to base assumption of no creator due to cruelty is a very odd correlation, almost short vision based on the sub-conscious set by Abrahamic religions that all things in this universe are good.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
In terms of natural selection and evolution there are only effective and ineffective strategies to survive and reproduce.

by cm2012 7y ago

zoul 7y ago

Fucked when viewed from the point of a single individual. Beatiful when considered as a whole.

hudon 7y ago

We don’t understand the extent to which a wasp’s prey feel pain, so it’s hard to project a human sensibility like “cruelty” onto it. There isn’t strong evidence to suggest that they “feel” the way we do about things like pain and cruelty. A wasp’s prey being eaten inside-out could very well be as natural and pain-less as lava burning through the Earth’s skin.

saiya-jin 7y ago
Pain is a survival reaction, natural feedback to avoid actions that damage/destroy the being. It was proven that even flowers feel a form of pain. Pain of smaller creatures might not be exactly same as what we experience, but there is no logical reason to think that feeling pain or other self-preservation instincts are absent. There is no point to think that unless you hear screams and cries all is good and fine.
- Sverigevader 7y ago
  Mental (un)health is an example of this. Sometimes you can neither hear nor see it.
- refurb 7y ago
  Suffering is an emotional response to pain. Plenty of animals react to negative stimuli, but not all of them experience suffering.

mhh__ 7y ago

"Well, it's funny that the people, when they say that this is evidence of the Almighty, always quote beautiful things. They always quote orchids and hummingbirds and butterflies and roses." But I always have to think too of a little boy sitting on the banks of a river in west Africa who has a worm boring through his eyeball, turning him blind before he's five years old. And I reply and say, "Well, presumably the God you speak about created the worm as well," and now, I find that baffling to credit a merciful God with that action. - David Attenborough

clay_the_ripper 7y ago
I see this argument a lot for the non-existence of a higher power, god whatever. But it’s based on the (I think false) presumption that in order for a higher power to exist, that power must necessarily intend for humans on an individual basis have nothing bad happen to them. This is clearly false since the world is full of suffering, pain, genocide, murder and the like. Obviously, the point of life is not for all us to get along and be happy because nothing bad happens, it’s to try to overcome the horror and live in the appreciation of every moment that we are alive, no matter the pain or suffering. Living in enteral peace is easy when nothing bad happens, it’s when the shit hits the fan that the real work begins. In my humble view, each of us has a part to play in the greater order of the universe. Sometimes that part is to be rich and comfortable. Other times it’s to be a starving child. If you believe in re-incarnation, all of us are the starving child AND the billionaire.
- mhh__ 7y ago
  > must necessarily intend for humans on an individual basis have nothing bad happen to them This is at very least at odds with Christian teaching e.g. the personal god is one believed in by many. This regardless of the lack of scientific evidence for the existence of God.
  - kaoD 7y ago
    I don't know which specific Christian sect you're referring to but in Catholicism God isn't seen as merciful on Earth. Penance and repentance (due to our sins, including the Original Sin) are core parts of their belief. Old testament's God is a jerk. Only on afterlife will you be absolved of your sins (or sent to hell I guess).

jasim 7y ago

The Patrician took a sip of his beer. ‘I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I’m sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that’s when I first learned about evil. It is built in to the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.’ -- Unseen Academicals, Terry Pratchett

arethuza 7y ago
A long, long time ago when I was in Primary 7 out teacher was a splendid old chap, just about to retire who had been a Spitfire pilot in WW2. We read the bible every day - usually the violent and rather unpleasant parts of the Old Testament. I do believe old Mr C might have been teaching us a subtle lesson there which he couldn't do openly - it being a deeply religious community in the north of Scotland. In the memorable words of Randolph Churchill (son of Winston) after being bet to read the Bible by a well meaning colleague: "Isn't God a shit!".

masklinn 7y ago

Don't forget that parasitoid wasps generally feed upon parasitic insects themselves. The average weevil is a tree's botfly burrowing beneath its skin and eating it from inside, an aphid is a vampire feeding on a flower's lifeblood, …

tr33house 7y ago

The Christian understanding is that these practices are a result of sin and that will no longer be the case in the new Earth. Most animals, including actual lions, will be vegan/veg in the new world. Current adaptations are simply adaptations as a result of current conditions. Src: Isiah 65:25

lukeqsee 7y ago
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted; what you say is correct from a Christian theological perspective. (Source: a 4-year degree from a somewhat well-known, mostly for negatives, Christian university.) I have no intentions to debate theology in this forum. Hardly the right place.
edflsafoiewq 7y ago
An interesting paper on the opposite point of view. Isa 65 is discussed. Death and the Garden: An Examination of Original Immortality, Vegetarianism, and Animal Peace in the Hebrew Bible and Mesopotamia: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/0qm3n0mt https://escholarship.org/uc/item/0qm3n0mt

gumby 7y ago

Perhaps that relates to the origin of the god. If it itself had been created in some similar way it would naturally consider such a process perfectly natural.

amriksohata 7y ago

For me the biggest misnomer is to assume just because God is God, he would be nice. Eastern texts, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism etc explain this by Karma. You are a result of your actions, not Gods.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
...and the child on the riverbank in Kenya, with its eyeball being eaten from the inside out, was sinful how? How could a child 'deserve' such cruel treatment?
- amriksohata 7y ago
  Horrible situation, all these religions dont just preach Karma, but also Dharma, there are 4 parts, Karma, Dharma, Moksha and Artha. Karma is the basis of your actions, what that child might have done in a past life, but that doesn't stop your Dharma, the guy walking by from helping him. Its our Dharma (duty) to help those and not blame their past lives.
  - amriksohata 7y ago
    What I'm saying more closer to the point is to base assumption of no creator due to cruelty is a very odd correlation, almost short vision based on the sub-conscious set by Abrahamic religions that all things in this universe are good.

mytailorisrich 7y ago

In terms of natural selection and evolution there are only effective and ineffective strategies to survive and reproduce.