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We'll get there. I don't believe for a minute that kentonv doesn't still plan on being a part of that future. > This needs some sort of WRT54G kinda moment, sy

We'll get there. I don't believe for a minute that kentonv doesn't still plan on being a part of that future. > This needs some sort of WRT54G kinda moment, synology or ???, you needed to have a last mile partner or a host (vpn in to services) While I love the idea of everyone running their own hardware, I've been thinking recently that physical separateness might be the least important aspect of decentralization. I think alignment of incentives is more important. What I mean is that having your apps/data on google's servers isn't necessarily a problem, but being locked into their platform and unable to easily change is. When it's simple and convenient for customers to change providers, companies are incentivized to maintain high quality products and features such as privacy guarantees.

kentonv 7y ago
I agree, but I add one thing that I've seen a lot of decentralization efforts ignore: If I decide to move servers, I need to be able to take with me not just my data, but my software (apps). Otherwise, self-hosting tends to mean accepting second-rate software, and choosing the best software means also choosing the servers provided by the same company. These should be separate decisions.
- oscargrouch 7y ago
  Im creating something that take this into account; you should have a embeddable/movable entity where you keep your data, api´s and apps. And i tell you its a lot of work.. Was following Sandstorm closely, and despite the fact that im going with different choices compared with Sandstorm, your project was one that i instantly recognized to be tackling in the same domain. I mean, i think your meditation and problem solving are in the right place, we just need a couple more iterations , research and efforts to get there. I will try to give it a shot too, been working on this on a couple of years over the chromium codebase, with a design that was not quite right in the beggining, that needed couple more of iteration and tought, but that in the current incarnation, i think i might have something to show. I hope i can count with your comments and criticism when i launch it, which i believe, its only a couple of months from now, as i have a great respect for your work and your vision. You helped to move the needle forward in a domain we need desperately of a solution or else all of our data and freedoms are at stake (not to mention it can even be a better technology than the current cloud-corporate centric vision that are designed to maximize corporations profit and data centralization, where we dont actually own anything, anymore). So thanks for all of your work, it was really inspiring.
  - edraferi 7y ago
    Looking forward to seeing your project!
    - kentonv 7y ago
      Me too!
- solipsism 7y ago
  I need to be able to take with me not just my data, but my software (apps) Can you give an example of what you're talking about here?
  - oscargrouch 7y ago
    Not the parent, but i understand this as the paradigm that containers and VM´s use for instance. Your applications and executables are also part of the data and move together with them.
    - ithkuil 7y ago
      Yes, you can already install an application in a VM or container (or just instantiate one of the many ready to use images out there; shameless plug https://bitnami.com https://bitnami.com). But sandstorm is something else. It composes well. You can have an application that is a good document editor and another one that offers a spreadsheet that works for you, and have a unified layer that handles identity, authorization, document management (collections, sharing). Short slogans as "liberate your data" or "self host your apps" focus on the end goal without highlighting what is really stopping us from doing it: the integrated, cohesive experience many of us expect/need, especially in the enterprise environments. I recently went through an acquisition where we had to switch from gsuite to office 365. Oh my. What a mess. In the ideal world we would have had our stuff in sandstorm grains, and after the merger our new colleagues would have access to them even if we wouldn't necessarily have picked the same spreadsheet app for example. Now, for those of us that Word doesn't work well and were happy with Google Docs, well, we don't have a choice: we cannot possibly give a gsuite account to every employee in the larger company and thus we have to migrate in order to not preclude potential collaboration
  - kentonv 7y ago
    I mean that if I think Google Sheets is the best online spreadsheet software, but I don't want to store my data on Google's servers, I should be able to run Google Sheets on some other servers. I shouldn't be forced to use some other, worse software if I choose different physical hosting. These should be independent decisions. SaaS providers basically have vertical monopolies here and I think that hurts consumers.

kentonv 7y ago

I agree, but I add one thing that I've seen a lot of decentralization efforts ignore: If I decide to move servers, I need to be able to take with me not just my data, but my software (apps). Otherwise, self-hosting tends to mean accepting second-rate software, and choosing the best software means also choosing the servers provided by the same company. These should be separate decisions.

oscargrouch 7y ago
Im creating something that take this into account; you should have a embeddable/movable entity where you keep your data, api´s and apps. And i tell you its a lot of work.. Was following Sandstorm closely, and despite the fact that im going with different choices compared with Sandstorm, your project was one that i instantly recognized to be tackling in the same domain. I mean, i think your meditation and problem solving are in the right place, we just need a couple more iterations , research and efforts to get there. I will try to give it a shot too, been working on this on a couple of years over the chromium codebase, with a design that was not quite right in the beggining, that needed couple more of iteration and tought, but that in the current incarnation, i think i might have something to show. I hope i can count with your comments and criticism when i launch it, which i believe, its only a couple of months from now, as i have a great respect for your work and your vision. You helped to move the needle forward in a domain we need desperately of a solution or else all of our data and freedoms are at stake (not to mention it can even be a better technology than the current cloud-corporate centric vision that are designed to maximize corporations profit and data centralization, where we dont actually own anything, anymore). So thanks for all of your work, it was really inspiring.
- edraferi 7y ago
  Looking forward to seeing your project!
  - kentonv 7y ago
    Me too!
solipsism 7y ago
I need to be able to take with me not just my data, but my software (apps) Can you give an example of what you're talking about here?
- oscargrouch 7y ago
  Not the parent, but i understand this as the paradigm that containers and VM´s use for instance. Your applications and executables are also part of the data and move together with them.
  - ithkuil 7y ago
    Yes, you can already install an application in a VM or container (or just instantiate one of the many ready to use images out there; shameless plug https://bitnami.com https://bitnami.com). But sandstorm is something else. It composes well. You can have an application that is a good document editor and another one that offers a spreadsheet that works for you, and have a unified layer that handles identity, authorization, document management (collections, sharing). Short slogans as "liberate your data" or "self host your apps" focus on the end goal without highlighting what is really stopping us from doing it: the integrated, cohesive experience many of us expect/need, especially in the enterprise environments. I recently went through an acquisition where we had to switch from gsuite to office 365. Oh my. What a mess. In the ideal world we would have had our stuff in sandstorm grains, and after the merger our new colleagues would have access to them even if we wouldn't necessarily have picked the same spreadsheet app for example. Now, for those of us that Word doesn't work well and were happy with Google Docs, well, we don't have a choice: we cannot possibly give a gsuite account to every employee in the larger company and thus we have to migrate in order to not preclude potential collaboration
- kentonv 7y ago
  I mean that if I think Google Sheets is the best online spreadsheet software, but I don't want to store my data on Google's servers, I should be able to run Google Sheets on some other servers. I shouldn't be forced to use some other, worse software if I choose different physical hosting. These should be independent decisions. SaaS providers basically have vertical monopolies here and I think that hurts consumers.