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Some of these exit bans might be in the situation you describe, but other ones are not. US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports, who a

Some of these exit bans might be in the situation you describe, but other ones are not. US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports, who aren't under any known investigations have also been held back in exit bans. Also, holding someone's adult children because their father is suspected of something is never acceptable. The fact that these bans are only becoming more frequent now with the trade war is evidence that they aren't just a neutral exercise.

diego 7y ago
Are they becoming more frequent or is the press mentioning them more often? Citations needed.
dirtyid 7y ago
> but other ones are not But what are these others. The article's examples are: billion+ fraud, espionage, and political corruption by family members. The last one is optically the most senselessly punitive. Clearly political retaliations which I oppose. For financial crimes, in absence of extradition treaties, China's hands are tied, we shouldn't expect them to just allow mass fraud to go unanswered. Punishing billionaires, albeit with bias, is one of the few things China does partially right. Espionage rationalizes itself. > holding someone's adult children because their father is suspected of something is never acceptable. From NYT: >The couple sold the Arcadia home in 2004 and bought a house in a gated community in Armonk, N.Y., an affluent town, records show. The home was transferred to Cynthia Liu’s name in 2011 and sold in 2014 for almost $900,000. There's shenanigans suggesting the kids were used to launder assets which makes them directly culpable. There's no telling how much of this is actually a family affair. They're not kids. They're adults who have benefited from embezzled money. >aren't just a neutral exercise. No they're not, Chinese law was never neutral when it comes to expats, but it's hard to feel sorry when western drug dealers or spies complain losing white privilege. The point is, China-US-Canadian relationships are cooling. If you have GOOD reason to be targeted by China, then don't go there. There are hundreds of thousands of expats in China, when some of them get arrested, the question should really be, why them in particular.
- Ill_ban_myself 7y ago
  Chinese forecasts always seem to assume a slow march in a particular direction. What happens if cooling becomes a rapid heat up in tensions? The US is unpredictable and has always flourished when the world is in chaos. Good luck predicting when and how and who decides it is time to go over the waterfall
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > billion+ fraud, espionage, and political corruption by family members Detaining the estranged daughters of a suspected fraudster is not due process. It’s the sort of shenanigans that make Chinese courts the laughingstocks they are held to be.
  - dahdum 7y ago
    How is this different than the US requiring passport surrender of a citizen charged with a crime along with their father? The US doesn’t let dual citizens just fly away when charged, why should China?
    - thedudeabides5 7y ago
      Are they charged with a crime? Due process would be served if they are being charged. TBC, it’s not like all the people in gitmo got their due process but still, either charge the kids or* let them go.
      - lordlimecat 7y ago
        My understanding is that SCOTUS has found gitmo prisoners to have a right to due process in Federal courts.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > How is this different than the US requiring passport surrender of a citizen charged with a crime along with their father? Source? For your passport to be surrendered, you need to be charged with a crime. Being related to the accused isn’t a crime. (The black eye that is Guantanamo notwithstanding.) More critically, many of these people have been charged with nothing. No process is pending. They are held with no next steps. There is simply no analog for this behaviour in countries with the rule of law, whether that be Taiwan or Japan or Germany or the United States.
sandworm101 7y ago
>> US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports, The simplistic American system of citizenship is not universal. Being born in a country does not always make one automatically a citizen of that country. So too does being born in country A not negate one's automatic citizenship in country B. From the perspective of China, that a person was born in the US is immaterial. If they are born to Chinese parents then they are Chinese, especially when now standing inside China. This is why one should always talk to a lawyer before visiting "the old country" with kids born elsewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law Bigger horror story: First generation Iranian-Canadian family fly to Iran to introduce canadian-born grandchildren to Iranian-born grandparents. At airport for flight home. 19 years old? Male? born to Iranian parents? standing inside Iran? Have you done your military service? Whether one can "disavow" a citizenship is a big question. Citizenship is not a hat. You cannot just move to Canada, marry a Canadian, and suddenly expect not to owe US taxes ... or not be drafted into a US war.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Sounds like there's not a lot of difference between "citizen" and "subject". The claims of ownership across generations for births that occurred elsewhere are the most astonishing part of this for me.
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    Then don't look into who can acquire Israeli citizenship. They are open to "all Jewish persons", both people born to jewish mothers and converts "who are not a member of another religion". So citizenship, or not, can turn on the specifics of religious faith and ritual. (Isreal is not alone in this, they are just the most western-leaning nation for whom religious dogma is used in determining citizenship.)
    - maratd 7y ago
      I think you're confusing the word "can" and "must". A Jew can become an Israeli citizen. The issue here is that many of these people are not choosing to be China's citizens and yet are considered such.

diego 7y ago

Are they becoming more frequent or is the press mentioning them more often? Citations needed.

dirtyid 7y ago

> but other ones are not But what are these others. The article's examples are: billion+ fraud, espionage, and political corruption by family members. The last one is optically the most senselessly punitive. Clearly political retaliations which I oppose. For financial crimes, in absence of extradition treaties, China's hands are tied, we shouldn't expect them to just allow mass fraud to go unanswered. Punishing billionaires, albeit with bias, is one of the few things China does partially right. Espionage rationalizes itself. > holding someone's adult children because their father is suspected of something is never acceptable. From NYT: >The couple sold the Arcadia home in 2004 and bought a house in a gated community in Armonk, N.Y., an affluent town, records show. The home was transferred to Cynthia Liu’s name in 2011 and sold in 2014 for almost $900,000. There's shenanigans suggesting the kids were used to launder assets which makes them directly culpable. There's no telling how much of this is actually a family affair. They're not kids. They're adults who have benefited from embezzled money. >aren't just a neutral exercise. No they're not, Chinese law was never neutral when it comes to expats, but it's hard to feel sorry when western drug dealers or spies complain losing white privilege. The point is, China-US-Canadian relationships are cooling. If you have GOOD reason to be targeted by China, then don't go there. There are hundreds of thousands of expats in China, when some of them get arrested, the question should really be, why them in particular.

Ill_ban_myself 7y ago
Chinese forecasts always seem to assume a slow march in a particular direction. What happens if cooling becomes a rapid heat up in tensions? The US is unpredictable and has always flourished when the world is in chaos. Good luck predicting when and how and who decides it is time to go over the waterfall
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> billion+ fraud, espionage, and political corruption by family members Detaining the estranged daughters of a suspected fraudster is not due process. It’s the sort of shenanigans that make Chinese courts the laughingstocks they are held to be.
- dahdum 7y ago
  How is this different than the US requiring passport surrender of a citizen charged with a crime along with their father? The US doesn’t let dual citizens just fly away when charged, why should China?
  - thedudeabides5 7y ago
    Are they charged with a crime? Due process would be served if they are being charged. TBC, it’s not like all the people in gitmo got their due process but still, either charge the kids or* let them go.
    - lordlimecat 7y ago
      My understanding is that SCOTUS has found gitmo prisoners to have a right to due process in Federal courts.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > How is this different than the US requiring passport surrender of a citizen charged with a crime along with their father? Source? For your passport to be surrendered, you need to be charged with a crime. Being related to the accused isn’t a crime. (The black eye that is Guantanamo notwithstanding.) More critically, many of these people have been charged with nothing. No process is pending. They are held with no next steps. There is simply no analog for this behaviour in countries with the rule of law, whether that be Taiwan or Japan or Germany or the United States.

sandworm101 7y ago

>> US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports, The simplistic American system of citizenship is not universal. Being born in a country does not always make one automatically a citizen of that country. So too does being born in country A not negate one's automatic citizenship in country B. From the perspective of China, that a person was born in the US is immaterial. If they are born to Chinese parents then they are Chinese, especially when now standing inside China. This is why one should always talk to a lawyer before visiting "the old country" with kids born elsewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law Bigger horror story: First generation Iranian-Canadian family fly to Iran to introduce canadian-born grandchildren to Iranian-born grandparents. At airport for flight home. 19 years old? Male? born to Iranian parents? standing inside Iran? Have you done your military service? Whether one can "disavow" a citizenship is a big question. Citizenship is not a hat. You cannot just move to Canada, marry a Canadian, and suddenly expect not to owe US taxes ... or not be drafted into a US war.

nitrogen 7y ago
Sounds like there's not a lot of difference between "citizen" and "subject". The claims of ownership across generations for births that occurred elsewhere are the most astonishing part of this for me.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  Then don't look into who can acquire Israeli citizenship. They are open to "all Jewish persons", both people born to jewish mothers and converts "who are not a member of another religion". So citizenship, or not, can turn on the specifics of religious faith and ritual. (Isreal is not alone in this, they are just the most western-leaning nation for whom religious dogma is used in determining citizenship.)
  - maratd 7y ago
    I think you're confusing the word "can" and "must". A Jew can become an Israeli citizen. The issue here is that many of these people are not choosing to be China's citizens and yet are considered such.