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Despite your attempts to dress them up as being somehow "legally culpable" they have been charged with no crimes despite being detained for more than a year. T

by khuey 7y ago

Despite your attempts to dress them up as being somehow "legally culpable" they have been charged with no crimes despite being detained for more than a year. Their mistake was traveling to a totalitarian communist dictatorship and expecting not to be at risk of arbitrary detention.

djsumdog 7y ago
Remember the case of the German engineer who was arrested in Florida while trying to return home after his vacation? https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20171206/vw-executive-arrested-in-florida-gets-7-years-in-diesel-scandal https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20171206/vw-executive-arr...
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  ...who was complicit in a billion dollar fraud in the US. How is that comparable, exactly?
  - gumby 7y ago
    Because those siblings are believed to be complicit in a billion dollar fraud.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      Hardly works as a counterpoint, because doesn't satisfy what the original commenter said: "Despite your attempts to dress them up as being somehow "legally culpable" they have been charged with no crimes despite being detained for more than a year."
      - 8note 7y ago
        wouldn't an equivalent counterpoint then be to ship them to Guantanamo?
        privateSFacct 7y ago
        and waterboard them there while saying publicly you remain committed to human rights -> despite never charging them?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - NicoJuicy 7y ago
      So the siblings did it! You nailed the jackpot /s
    - khuey 7y ago
      Yeah that 19 year old Georgetown undergrad was definitely complicit in a billion dollar fraud that happened when he was 10.
    - stale2002 7y ago
      Are they charged with a crime? The answer is no. They have not been charged with any crimes.
- khuey 7y ago
  You mean the one who was charged with an actual crime and had a fair trial and due process of law?
gameswithgo 7y ago
so capitalist democracies never detain people for a year without charges?
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  First, they shouldn't. Second we do have the rule of law which can get them out and get them penalties. There's one significant exception for the US, and it's has besmirched our reputation, perhaps forever. We have the situation where people are held for life in Guantanamo Cuba at a US military base, accused of being terrorists related to 9/11 and they don't have access to the us judicial system generally. There were many people held there who were found only after years of time to not have been terrorists. Then don't forget the cia tortured people on our behalf too. This was wrong. It doesn't excuse what China is doing.
  - pinkfoot 7y ago
    > This was wrong. It doesn't excuse what China is doing. Unless, of course, you are still doing it.
    - fucking_tragedy 7y ago
      No, someone else doing a bad thing doesn't make doing that bad thing okay.
      - pinkfoot 7y ago
        Er no: if the largest, most powerful country on earth - with the most amount of allies and friendly trading partners is doing something and is getting away with it, then - by definition - it acceptable to the 'norms of the times'. Which means others can do it to.
        johnisgood 7y ago
        No, it does not make it okay. If it is morally questionable, then no matter who does it, it remains so.
VLM 7y ago
China has to walk a tightrope where if they're too humane they're accused of randomly treating arbitrary innocent bystanders like criminals, and on the other extreme they'd be letting co-conspirators walk free. They seem to be taking a sensible path down the middle? Lets be realistic, the kids aren't significant co conspirators if the dollar values of the supposed identity thefts or conspiracies are really small compared to the whole (at least... as far as the authorities can publicly announce, LOL, maybe they are in deeper than they can announce), and you can't expect relatives to testify or cooperate against each other reliably anyway. On the other hand they're literally members of a "crime family" and if this happened to mafia members, people would not be overly surprised to hear semi-clean conspirators are having a rough time with the law. Much like "anyone can sue anyone for anything at any time", arbitrary detention is hardly limited to one specific country or political system. I'm sure Assange, Snowden, and the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay would beg to differ with your opinion.
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  > China has to walk a tightrope where if they're too humane they're accused of randomly treating arbitrary innocent bystanders like criminals What do you mean by this? Why would being too humane cause accusations of arbitrarily treating people like criminals?
- godelski 7y ago
  > China has to walk a tightrope where if they're too [harsh] they're accused of randomly treating arbitrary innocent bystanders like criminals, and on the other extreme they'd be letting co-conspirators walk free. Is this not a tight rope that every single country walks? What's being described above doesn't sound very middle road to me. Though I prefer that when systems fail criminals go free vs innocent lose their freedom (Blackstone's Formulation).
  - chillacy 7y ago
    It is, and while Blackstone's Formulation is foundational in western legal systems, I also acknowledge that other countries may choose different lines to draw. At the very least it's a grand experiment into what works the best.
jopsen 7y ago
Haha, Spot on :)

by khuey 7y ago

djsumdog 7y ago

Remember the case of the German engineer who was arrested in Florida while trying to return home after his vacation? https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20171206/vw-executive-arrested-in-florida-gets-7-years-in-diesel-scandal https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20171206/vw-executive-arr...

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
...who was complicit in a billion dollar fraud in the US. How is that comparable, exactly?
- gumby 7y ago
  Because those siblings are believed to be complicit in a billion dollar fraud.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    Hardly works as a counterpoint, because doesn't satisfy what the original commenter said: "Despite your attempts to dress them up as being somehow "legally culpable" they have been charged with no crimes despite being detained for more than a year."
    - 8note 7y ago
      wouldn't an equivalent counterpoint then be to ship them to Guantanamo?
      - privateSFacct 7y ago
        and waterboard them there while saying publicly you remain committed to human rights -> despite never charging them?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - NicoJuicy 7y ago
    So the siblings did it! You nailed the jackpot /s
  - khuey 7y ago
    Yeah that 19 year old Georgetown undergrad was definitely complicit in a billion dollar fraud that happened when he was 10.
  - stale2002 7y ago
    Are they charged with a crime? The answer is no. They have not been charged with any crimes.
khuey 7y ago
You mean the one who was charged with an actual crime and had a fair trial and due process of law?

gameswithgo 7y ago

so capitalist democracies never detain people for a year without charges?

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
First, they shouldn't. Second we do have the rule of law which can get them out and get them penalties. There's one significant exception for the US, and it's has besmirched our reputation, perhaps forever. We have the situation where people are held for life in Guantanamo Cuba at a US military base, accused of being terrorists related to 9/11 and they don't have access to the us judicial system generally. There were many people held there who were found only after years of time to not have been terrorists. Then don't forget the cia tortured people on our behalf too. This was wrong. It doesn't excuse what China is doing.
- pinkfoot 7y ago
  > This was wrong. It doesn't excuse what China is doing. Unless, of course, you are still doing it.
  - fucking_tragedy 7y ago
    No, someone else doing a bad thing doesn't make doing that bad thing okay.
    - pinkfoot 7y ago
      Er no: if the largest, most powerful country on earth - with the most amount of allies and friendly trading partners is doing something and is getting away with it, then - by definition - it acceptable to the 'norms of the times'. Which means others can do it to.
      - johnisgood 7y ago
        No, it does not make it okay. If it is morally questionable, then no matter who does it, it remains so.

VLM 7y ago

China has to walk a tightrope where if they're too humane they're accused of randomly treating arbitrary innocent bystanders like criminals, and on the other extreme they'd be letting co-conspirators walk free. They seem to be taking a sensible path down the middle? Lets be realistic, the kids aren't significant co conspirators if the dollar values of the supposed identity thefts or conspiracies are really small compared to the whole (at least... as far as the authorities can publicly announce, LOL, maybe they are in deeper than they can announce), and you can't expect relatives to testify or cooperate against each other reliably anyway. On the other hand they're literally members of a "crime family" and if this happened to mafia members, people would not be overly surprised to hear semi-clean conspirators are having a rough time with the law. Much like "anyone can sue anyone for anything at any time", arbitrary detention is hardly limited to one specific country or political system. I'm sure Assange, Snowden, and the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay would beg to differ with your opinion.

wutbrodo 7y ago
> China has to walk a tightrope where if they're too humane they're accused of randomly treating arbitrary innocent bystanders like criminals What do you mean by this? Why would being too humane cause accusations of arbitrarily treating people like criminals?
godelski 7y ago
> China has to walk a tightrope where if they're too [harsh] they're accused of randomly treating arbitrary innocent bystanders like criminals, and on the other extreme they'd be letting co-conspirators walk free. Is this not a tight rope that every single country walks? What's being described above doesn't sound very middle road to me. Though I prefer that when systems fail criminals go free vs innocent lose their freedom (Blackstone's Formulation).
- chillacy 7y ago
  It is, and while Blackstone's Formulation is foundational in western legal systems, I also acknowledge that other countries may choose different lines to draw. At the very least it's a grand experiment into what works the best.

jopsen 7y ago

Haha, Spot on :)