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Are you are suggesting that they make a spec that implements API's that would conflict with 70%+ of the web and they deal with those conflicts by adding a `if (

Are you are suggesting that they make a spec that implements API's that would conflict with 70%+ of the web and they deal with those conflicts by adding a `if (window.jQuery) return;` in all those calls? Are you in all seriousness saying that a native spec should account for a library? My point is that you simply can't do that. It would be irresponsible, short sighted, and dangerous. We are talking about a language used in nearly all of the web. The decisions that get made around it have an impact of decades. I HAS to play nice with all the prior art out there and it would be a _terrible_ decision to start adding one off handling for compatibility with libraries built atop it.

dmitriid 7y ago
> make a spec that implements API's that would conflict with 70%+ of the web Why would it? jQuery’s APIs could be folded into HTMLElement and HTMLDocument. Instead, we’re stuck with 90s-era Java style in all the DOM APIs.
- vikingcaffiene 7y ago
  I want to be clear here: its totally possible to implement jQuery's api's in the native spec. That's not the part that makes doing so irresponsible and dangerous. Its the fact that (to use a trivial example) `$('.thing-i-want').click(doSomething)` implemented on an existing site would now potentially behave differently when the new spec got released. Worse, it might not break outright and instead cause a bunch of confusing errors that you gotta trace back to the source. Now scale that out to web scale, add it to every jquery version and api out there that conflicts. Think about all the little mom and pop wordpress sites that don't have a staff of developers on hand to scramble and address the litany of bugs that would cascade down upon them. The web would go up in flames.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    These things can still be designed and implemented. `element.query().<all the new apis>` for example.
tambourine_man 7y ago
>Are you are suggesting that they make a spec that implements API's that would conflict with 70%+ of the web and they deal with those conflicts by adding a `if (window.jQuery) return;` in all those calls? Of course not. You can implement the same API without stealing its namespace. $$, sel, select, whatever. >Are you in all seriousness saying that a native spec should account for a library? If it's by far the most widely used one, one that changed the way we write web apps, and made viable a whole class of solutions, then of course. That's one of the main ways platforms grow. You see how people are using it and you make it even easier, faster. What I'm saying is, we have a half arsed copy of jQuery when we could've had the real thing, only faster and builtin. Instead of trying some ideas in a library/framework, iterating until polished, then considering making it official, we reinvented the wheal from scratch, only, unsurprisingly, worse.

dmitriid 7y ago

> make a spec that implements API's that would conflict with 70%+ of the web Why would it? jQuery’s APIs could be folded into HTMLElement and HTMLDocument. Instead, we’re stuck with 90s-era Java style in all the DOM APIs.

vikingcaffiene 7y ago
I want to be clear here: its totally possible to implement jQuery's api's in the native spec. That's not the part that makes doing so irresponsible and dangerous. Its the fact that (to use a trivial example) `$('.thing-i-want').click(doSomething)` implemented on an existing site would now potentially behave differently when the new spec got released. Worse, it might not break outright and instead cause a bunch of confusing errors that you gotta trace back to the source. Now scale that out to web scale, add it to every jquery version and api out there that conflicts. Think about all the little mom and pop wordpress sites that don't have a staff of developers on hand to scramble and address the litany of bugs that would cascade down upon them. The web would go up in flames.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  These things can still be designed and implemented. `element.query().<all the new apis>` for example.

tambourine_man 7y ago

>Are you are suggesting that they make a spec that implements API's that would conflict with 70%+ of the web and they deal with those conflicts by adding a `if (window.jQuery) return;` in all those calls? Of course not. You can implement the same API without stealing its namespace. $$, sel, select, whatever. >Are you in all seriousness saying that a native spec should account for a library? If it's by far the most widely used one, one that changed the way we write web apps, and made viable a whole class of solutions, then of course. That's one of the main ways platforms grow. You see how people are using it and you make it even easier, faster. What I'm saying is, we have a half arsed copy of jQuery when we could've had the real thing, only faster and builtin. Instead of trying some ideas in a library/framework, iterating until polished, then considering making it official, we reinvented the wheal from scratch, only, unsurprisingly, worse.