8 ms·

I think you're probably going to be ok if you aren't related to anyone wanted by the Chinese government. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of what they're

by uwuhn 7y ago

I think you're probably going to be ok if you aren't related to anyone wanted by the Chinese government. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of what they're doing by holding people as bargaining chips, but a random person should be safe. Unless you get framed for something, which is entirely possible. Or you simply piss off the wrong person.

DeonPenny 7y ago
They exit ban foreigners for unpaid debts. Apparently this extremely common
unreal37 7y ago
Sorry, but this seems to be a naive view. China is known to arrest people and/or grant extreme sentences in retaliation for things going on in world politics. Recently China has been executing Canadians in retaliation for an arrest of a Chinese citizen at the request of the United States.[1] Many people view these arrests at retaliation. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions-africa-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions...
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  China is a very safe country for Western people to visit. And if something happens to a Westerner authorities often go the extra mile to help. On the other hand, drug trafficking is punishable by death in China. If anything China has tended to be more lenient to Westerners convicted of drug trafficking compared to its own citizens. They are welcoming but they expect respect and no involvement in politics.
  - tomohawk 7y ago
    Can you name anything that the CCP would think is not political? They are great at making up excuses after the fact to justify what they do. If for whatever reason they want to arrest you, you can be sure they will have an excuse for it. What's the excuse for harvesting organs for political prisoners? Were they "asking for it"? A country that is run by people like this is not safe to visit. https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and-report-17th-june-2019/ https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and...
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      The reality is, obviously, that they do not want to arrest Western visitors. In fact they want Western visitors to get the best opinion of the country possible and go home telling every one how great China is. I fully agree: China is not a democratic country, and there is no independent judiciary, and crossing the wrong people while there is a bad idea (is there a country where it's a good idea, though?) But let's not claim that it is dangerous to visit or even to move to for work. It is very safe.
  - moron4hire 7y ago
    "No involvement in politics" is a very high barrier to cross for a lot of westerners. I would not want to personally test if retweets supporting Tibetan freedom counts as "political involvement".
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      How is it a high barrier? You're a visitor in a foreign country. Whatever your opinions are I think it is not too difficult to refrain from being involved in politics or sensitive issues. It's common sense of travelling to a foreign land, really.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - moron4hire 7y ago
        Come on. People retweet political things without really thinking about it all the time. I travel to "foreign land" ask the time and don't have anything to fear for my expressions of political opinion because most Western countries protect freedom of expression. As someone who believes in democracy and classic liberalism, I think it is too much to expect. Saying "it's China, it's a different culture" doesn't make oppression better.
        chillacy 7y ago
        "Come on, people chew gum all the time... saying it's Singapore doesn't make the oppression better" "Come on, people smoke weed all the time... saying it's Arkansas doesn't make the oppression better" "Come on, people walk around naked on beaches all the time... saying it's Saudi Arabia doesn't make the oppression better" Different places, different cultures, different rules. On the plus side, there's no place like home, wherever that is.
      - johnisgood 7y ago
        "Not too difficult" is not a good way to justify it. Try using this justification against something with which you agree. You should immediately realize that just because X is not too difficult to do, does not necessarily justify the consequences of doing X. An example: it is not too difficult to not voice our concerns regarding brutality, does not mean we should keep quiet about it.
  - tmepdidjdj 7y ago
    In order words, they expect “politics to play”. Which is exactly what an authoritarian country would expect. I think a lot of people would be uncomfortable with that idea. Which is fine as long as they don’t step into China. However, as China grows stronger everyday, they are starting to expect other countries to toe the line as well. That's the problem I have.
- uwuhn 7y ago
  I hate how arguing about this makes me look like a shill, but here goes: Do you think that he's innocent? If not, then I don't see what this has to do with my post. Going further, you're implying that China is giving excessive punishments to foreigners due to geopolitical relations. You are omitting that China isn't treating this specific example more harshly than they would treat a Chinese citizen (who can't buy their way out with money and/or influence). They are being given equal treatment. The article even says that foreigners are typically treated favorably compared to locals. I do agree that the relaxation of this favorable treatment is related to world politics, but the way your post is framed is disingenuous. I don't think my original post needs an explicit explanation that a random foreigner being ok in China assumes that you don't commit an obvious crime that would result in, at the very least, prison time or deportation in nearly any other country that won't let you bribe your way out.
  - mehhh 7y ago
    Sepentza and Laowhy86 (two youtubers that bike around China) have recently moved out of China due to worsening treatment of foriegners. If you don't have local family connections advocating for you, as a foriegner you will end up with worse outcomes when interacting with the police or passport system (they've done a few videos on their run-ins with the Chinese legal system).
    - JCharante 7y ago
      It's also getting more expensive in China and they've mentioned that they can't work in China anymore (and have been relying on their videos as their sources of income). I'm not sure if that's because they changed from having work visas to marriage visas or because they are on tourist ones, but they both had a lot of work experience in China.
    - 044326throw 7y ago
      From what I’ve gathered, it’s not because it’s becoming more hostile, but rather they are no longer getting any privileges because of the complexion. “If you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
- AJ007 7y ago
  I would suggest that in general, avoid8’g countries that have both questionable legal systems and the death penalty for things one would consider normal in their home country. This would encompass much of the Middle East but exclude Singapore, for example. It is unfair to single out China in this case, and, “Canadians” is a single person here, not even two.
- amaccuish 7y ago
  So drug offences are in china punishable by death. Previously, I think China was a lot more leniant on westerners committing such offences; they held them for a bit, then sent them home and banned them from reentering. Here, they decided to enforce the law fully. You can argue it's unfair because the attitude of the state has changed and likely because of geopolitics. But from my point of view, the death penalty for drug offences was always a risk, so you're on your own if you decide to do stuff like that anyway. So the tl;dr is, white westerners no longer get a free pass in foreign country.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    This is one of the issues with selective/discretional enforcement of laws. The original oppressive law is ignored, because "it's usually not enforced/used." And then whether it is used for oppression just comes down to whether the powers that be decide you need oppressing. Indeed, it's one of the criticisms of the war on drugs: that enforcement was tilted towards people that law enforcement, for one reason or another, didn't like (e.g. skin color).
  - JCharante 7y ago
    I don't really mind that people are getting punished for drug offences, but a scenario where someone is framed for it concerns me.
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    Can't really believe someone is actually supporting the death penalty for minor drug offenses as a good place to start with proving their point.
    - dwaltrip 7y ago
      Not saying he should have been executed, but smuggling 500 pounds of meth is not a minor offense.
      - dehrmann 7y ago
        That will get you executed in Singapore, though the process for that happening is better understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard....
- trhway 7y ago
  one hell of an appeal: "Initially, Schellenberg was seemingly the recipient of such leniency. On November 20, he was sentenced to 15 years in prison for being an accessory to drug smuggling. But he appealed his conviction and at his retrial this week -- more than a month after top Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou was arrested in Vancouver, accused by the United States of helping cover up violations of sanctions on Iran -- he was convicted of a primary role in the smuggling and was sentenced to death."
leongrado 7y ago
This. If you're some some random scrub going to China, the government isn't going to bat an eye if you enter the country. Thousands of American citizens go to and from China every day. Detaining you for no reason is not what they're looking for.
- darkhorn 7y ago
  If you have beard, if you look middle eastern (a bit dark skinned like from south Europe, may be Afro-European from south USA), originnaly from middle east (doesn't matter if you are rised and having western citizenship), having Turkic name (because of Uygurs), holding Turkish citizenship, looking suspicius, having pro Hong Kong ot pro Tibetian opinions you will be questioned by police, and you will have hard time finding hotels. For example this guy cannot find otel because he has Turkish citizenship. https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk also he is being questioned every time when he is being noticed by police.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but it's certainly not the norm. I have a beard, and pro-HK and pro-Tibetan opinions. I've visited various places in China several times - never had any issues. The customs/immigration officials are friendly, just the same as they are everywhere (except the US!). The few interactions I've had with the police were also friendly, just the same as I'd expect everywhere (except the US!).
    - cheez 7y ago
      I'm guessing you're not brown. Key qualifier.
cheez 7y ago
> Or you simply piss off the wrong person. I tend to do this regularly, so that was the other reason ;-)
_iyig 7y ago
>Or you simply piss off the wrong person. This can be hard to avoid. For example, let’s say you get caught in a “tea room” scam. That’s where you meet a couple of attractive locals who invite you to a tea room, only when the bill comes it’s astronomically higher than you expected. Your new “friends” and the owners of the establishment are in cahoots. What do you do? If you say you won’t pay and the owners make a scene, it’s entirely possible that a crowd forms, someone shouts “That foreigner said Chinese people are trash!”, and now you’re sitting in a Chinese jail with lumps on your head and criminal charges. Or maybe a drunk harasses you, and the same thing happens. Or you get into a fender bender with some friend of a Party member. And so on. If you are a foreigner in China and get involved in a legal dispute, it will probably not go well for you. There is no independent judiciary. Your freedom would be subject to the Party’s political needs. Some firsthand accounts (ignore the clickbait titles/thumbnails, they’re just playing the YouTube algorithm game): https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg
- wpdev_63 7y ago
  Don't know why this is being downvoted. This is known to happen, just ask any ex-pat in the community. If you visit china and you're someone they may not like or have a reason to be targeted(even for monetary gain) use extreme caution. People should be aware of this.
jacquesm 7y ago
For what value of 'probably' would you want to sit it out? Personally you couldn't pay me to go to places that do not have functional courts.
a3n 7y ago
Or your company becomes involved in a conflict, making you a pawn. It ain't worth it.

by uwuhn 7y ago

DeonPenny 7y ago

They exit ban foreigners for unpaid debts. Apparently this extremely common

unreal37 7y ago

Sorry, but this seems to be a naive view. China is known to arrest people and/or grant extreme sentences in retaliation for things going on in world politics. Recently China has been executing Canadians in retaliation for an arrest of a Chinese citizen at the request of the United States.[1] Many people view these arrests at retaliation. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions-africa-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions...

mytailorisrich 7y ago
China is a very safe country for Western people to visit. And if something happens to a Westerner authorities often go the extra mile to help. On the other hand, drug trafficking is punishable by death in China. If anything China has tended to be more lenient to Westerners convicted of drug trafficking compared to its own citizens. They are welcoming but they expect respect and no involvement in politics.
- tomohawk 7y ago
  Can you name anything that the CCP would think is not political? They are great at making up excuses after the fact to justify what they do. If for whatever reason they want to arrest you, you can be sure they will have an excuse for it. What's the excuse for harvesting organs for political prisoners? Were they "asking for it"? A country that is run by people like this is not safe to visit. https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and-report-17th-june-2019/ https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and...
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    The reality is, obviously, that they do not want to arrest Western visitors. In fact they want Western visitors to get the best opinion of the country possible and go home telling every one how great China is. I fully agree: China is not a democratic country, and there is no independent judiciary, and crossing the wrong people while there is a bad idea (is there a country where it's a good idea, though?) But let's not claim that it is dangerous to visit or even to move to for work. It is very safe.
- moron4hire 7y ago
  "No involvement in politics" is a very high barrier to cross for a lot of westerners. I would not want to personally test if retweets supporting Tibetan freedom counts as "political involvement".
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    How is it a high barrier? You're a visitor in a foreign country. Whatever your opinions are I think it is not too difficult to refrain from being involved in politics or sensitive issues. It's common sense of travelling to a foreign land, really.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - moron4hire 7y ago
      Come on. People retweet political things without really thinking about it all the time. I travel to "foreign land" ask the time and don't have anything to fear for my expressions of political opinion because most Western countries protect freedom of expression. As someone who believes in democracy and classic liberalism, I think it is too much to expect. Saying "it's China, it's a different culture" doesn't make oppression better.
      - chillacy 7y ago
        "Come on, people chew gum all the time... saying it's Singapore doesn't make the oppression better" "Come on, people smoke weed all the time... saying it's Arkansas doesn't make the oppression better" "Come on, people walk around naked on beaches all the time... saying it's Saudi Arabia doesn't make the oppression better" Different places, different cultures, different rules. On the plus side, there's no place like home, wherever that is.
    - johnisgood 7y ago
      "Not too difficult" is not a good way to justify it. Try using this justification against something with which you agree. You should immediately realize that just because X is not too difficult to do, does not necessarily justify the consequences of doing X. An example: it is not too difficult to not voice our concerns regarding brutality, does not mean we should keep quiet about it.
- tmepdidjdj 7y ago
  In order words, they expect “politics to play”. Which is exactly what an authoritarian country would expect. I think a lot of people would be uncomfortable with that idea. Which is fine as long as they don’t step into China. However, as China grows stronger everyday, they are starting to expect other countries to toe the line as well. That's the problem I have.
uwuhn 7y ago
I hate how arguing about this makes me look like a shill, but here goes: Do you think that he's innocent? If not, then I don't see what this has to do with my post. Going further, you're implying that China is giving excessive punishments to foreigners due to geopolitical relations. You are omitting that China isn't treating this specific example more harshly than they would treat a Chinese citizen (who can't buy their way out with money and/or influence). They are being given equal treatment. The article even says that foreigners are typically treated favorably compared to locals. I do agree that the relaxation of this favorable treatment is related to world politics, but the way your post is framed is disingenuous. I don't think my original post needs an explicit explanation that a random foreigner being ok in China assumes that you don't commit an obvious crime that would result in, at the very least, prison time or deportation in nearly any other country that won't let you bribe your way out.
- mehhh 7y ago
  Sepentza and Laowhy86 (two youtubers that bike around China) have recently moved out of China due to worsening treatment of foriegners. If you don't have local family connections advocating for you, as a foriegner you will end up with worse outcomes when interacting with the police or passport system (they've done a few videos on their run-ins with the Chinese legal system).
  - JCharante 7y ago
    It's also getting more expensive in China and they've mentioned that they can't work in China anymore (and have been relying on their videos as their sources of income). I'm not sure if that's because they changed from having work visas to marriage visas or because they are on tourist ones, but they both had a lot of work experience in China.
  - 044326throw 7y ago
    From what I’ve gathered, it’s not because it’s becoming more hostile, but rather they are no longer getting any privileges because of the complexion. “If you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
AJ007 7y ago
I would suggest that in general, avoid8’g countries that have both questionable legal systems and the death penalty for things one would consider normal in their home country. This would encompass much of the Middle East but exclude Singapore, for example. It is unfair to single out China in this case, and, “Canadians” is a single person here, not even two.
amaccuish 7y ago
So drug offences are in china punishable by death. Previously, I think China was a lot more leniant on westerners committing such offences; they held them for a bit, then sent them home and banned them from reentering. Here, they decided to enforce the law fully. You can argue it's unfair because the attitude of the state has changed and likely because of geopolitics. But from my point of view, the death penalty for drug offences was always a risk, so you're on your own if you decide to do stuff like that anyway. So the tl;dr is, white westerners no longer get a free pass in foreign country.
- mlyle 7y ago
  This is one of the issues with selective/discretional enforcement of laws. The original oppressive law is ignored, because "it's usually not enforced/used." And then whether it is used for oppression just comes down to whether the powers that be decide you need oppressing. Indeed, it's one of the criticisms of the war on drugs: that enforcement was tilted towards people that law enforcement, for one reason or another, didn't like (e.g. skin color).
- JCharante 7y ago
  I don't really mind that people are getting punished for drug offences, but a scenario where someone is framed for it concerns me.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  Can't really believe someone is actually supporting the death penalty for minor drug offenses as a good place to start with proving their point.
  - dwaltrip 7y ago
    Not saying he should have been executed, but smuggling 500 pounds of meth is not a minor offense.
    - dehrmann 7y ago
      That will get you executed in Singapore, though the process for that happening is better understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard....
trhway 7y ago
one hell of an appeal: "Initially, Schellenberg was seemingly the recipient of such leniency. On November 20, he was sentenced to 15 years in prison for being an accessory to drug smuggling. But he appealed his conviction and at his retrial this week -- more than a month after top Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou was arrested in Vancouver, accused by the United States of helping cover up violations of sanctions on Iran -- he was convicted of a primary role in the smuggling and was sentenced to death."

leongrado 7y ago

This. If you're some some random scrub going to China, the government isn't going to bat an eye if you enter the country. Thousands of American citizens go to and from China every day. Detaining you for no reason is not what they're looking for.

darkhorn 7y ago
If you have beard, if you look middle eastern (a bit dark skinned like from south Europe, may be Afro-European from south USA), originnaly from middle east (doesn't matter if you are rised and having western citizenship), having Turkic name (because of Uygurs), holding Turkish citizenship, looking suspicius, having pro Hong Kong ot pro Tibetian opinions you will be questioned by police, and you will have hard time finding hotels. For example this guy cannot find otel because he has Turkish citizenship. https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk also he is being questioned every time when he is being noticed by police.
- GordonS 7y ago
  I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but it's certainly not the norm. I have a beard, and pro-HK and pro-Tibetan opinions. I've visited various places in China several times - never had any issues. The customs/immigration officials are friendly, just the same as they are everywhere (except the US!). The few interactions I've had with the police were also friendly, just the same as I'd expect everywhere (except the US!).
  - cheez 7y ago
    I'm guessing you're not brown. Key qualifier.

cheez 7y ago

> Or you simply piss off the wrong person. I tend to do this regularly, so that was the other reason ;-)

_iyig 7y ago

>Or you simply piss off the wrong person. This can be hard to avoid. For example, let’s say you get caught in a “tea room” scam. That’s where you meet a couple of attractive locals who invite you to a tea room, only when the bill comes it’s astronomically higher than you expected. Your new “friends” and the owners of the establishment are in cahoots. What do you do? If you say you won’t pay and the owners make a scene, it’s entirely possible that a crowd forms, someone shouts “That foreigner said Chinese people are trash!”, and now you’re sitting in a Chinese jail with lumps on your head and criminal charges. Or maybe a drunk harasses you, and the same thing happens. Or you get into a fender bender with some friend of a Party member. And so on. If you are a foreigner in China and get involved in a legal dispute, it will probably not go well for you. There is no independent judiciary. Your freedom would be subject to the Party’s political needs. Some firsthand accounts (ignore the clickbait titles/thumbnails, they’re just playing the YouTube algorithm game): https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg

wpdev_63 7y ago
Don't know why this is being downvoted. This is known to happen, just ask any ex-pat in the community. If you visit china and you're someone they may not like or have a reason to be targeted(even for monetary gain) use extreme caution. People should be aware of this.

jacquesm 7y ago

For what value of 'probably' would you want to sit it out? Personally you couldn't pay me to go to places that do not have functional courts.

a3n 7y ago

Or your company becomes involved in a conflict, making you a pawn. It ain't worth it.